Family Man

As noted elsewhere, I've been having a conversation with Charles Darwin (a theist) over a number of topics. That thread is getting muddled, so I'm starting a new thread here to continue the discussion.

CD claims that Psalm 22 (the hands and feet being pierced). It has been pointed out to CD that retrofitting vague verses to fit isn't a messianic prophecy, and that the hands and feet reference is inaccurate (crucifiction, as I understand, was normally done with ropes, and when nails were used they went through ankles and wrists -- hands and feet wouldn't hold the weight).

WinAce and CD had long posts (which I won't repeat here) on this thread starting about a quarter of the way down.

Anyone want to pick up the mantle? This is a bit out of my range of knowledge.

mark9950

The psalm was referring to someone else.What do you thimk?

Utnapishtim

Interestingly enough, I recently read the same passage in a Jewish bible, and it said "like lions at my hand and feet", not "they pierced my hands and feet". Is it possible that the pierced part is a mistranslation? I don't understand how there can be such a huge difference between these passages. From the Jewish bible I got the impression that David is referring to his enemies surrounding him and he compares them to lions biting at his extremities, getting ever closer.

TheDiddleyMan

Here is the entire passage from the New Revised Standard Version.

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
8 "Commit your cause to the LORD; let him deliver— let him rescue the one in whom he delights!"
9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother's breast.
10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled;
17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O LORD, do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD. May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29 To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.



I trust the New Revised Standard Version above all others because they are not done by christians who are trying to read Jesus into the OT (although they are Christians on the translation committe. I believe Bruce Metzger was one...)

Not to say that this is a perfect translation or that all Christian translations are horribly mutilated, but I do believe that the NRSV is a more unbiased version.

Kevin

Godless Wonder

Really? Ropes? Where'd you get that info?

Just wondering, because I always thought it a bit odd that Jesus would die after such a short time (few hours) on the cross. The damage inflicted just didn't seem to be even close to great enough to cause death. Seems a good way to cause a a lot of pain while someone slowly died of thirst, or very slow blood loss, but a few hours or a day... it never seemed to me like nearly enough time for someone reasonably healthy to die from it)

I've seen photos of modern people in the Philipines voluntarily being crucified with real nails and everything. They had ropes though. I always thought the ropes were there to make it less painful, so the people's weight wouldn't be held solely by the nails. Are you saying those people in the Phillipines are doing it authentically?

Probably not..., they don't die (either), heck they appear to do it year after year, just for fun and profit, I guess.

See this crucifixion photo and The accompanying story
And from the previous year

(on second look I see they are supporting their weight with their feet. Still... wow.)

Rational BAC

I don't see how nails through ankles and wrists would cause a SLOW blood loss. I would think that death would come within hours.

Family Man

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless Wonder
Really? Ropes? Where'd you get that info?

I read a lot of history and it's something I picked up. Nailing someone's extremities is not how crucifixion kills people. It's the need to keep the head up to keep breathing. Eventually, the victim becomes exhausted and suffocates. Ropes are a much easier way to fix someone to a cross than nails. Nails were used occasionally, however, so the crucifixion story is plausible.

Family Man

That would depend on whether they hit a major vein or artery, wouldn't it. Otherwise the nail itself would work as an inefficient bandage and the blood loss would be slow. It would, however, speed up the exhaustion process.

Crucifixion was a slow method of execution. It usually took days for a victim to die. Jesus's relatively quick death is decidedly strange, but as I recall not impossible with the additional spear wound.

Rick Sumner

First off, just to avoid the inevitable charge of post-Christianity interpolation that seems to be dished out when this verse comes up. . .

Ps.22.16 ". . .They have pierced my hands and feet" does appear in a pre-Christian version of Psalms. 5/6HevPs, found at K. Qumran, contains this reading.(Abegg, Flint and Ulrich, _The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_)

While the almost complete absence of skeletal remains would seem to argue that crucifixion was, in fact, usually done with ropes (if masses were being nailed to crosses, we would expect to find remains that had been nailed), several historians indicate otherwise:

It is also interesting to note that we have, in fact, found the remains of one crucifixion victim, who apparently suffered with nails. Information about him can be found here

Regards,
Rick

Celsus

Hi Rick,
Charlesworth has considerably revised his views on Jehohanan's crucifixion since that article appeared (1973). He based it on N. Haas' 1970 work "Anthropological Observations on the Skeletal Remains from Giv'at ha-Mivtar", Israeli Exploration Journal 20, 1970, which he now considers to be "severely flawed". You can read about his criticisms in "Crucifixion: Archaeology, Jesus, and the Dead Sea Scrolls" by J. Zias & J.H. Charlesworth in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, 1992, J.H. Charlesworth (ed.). In particular, his revised reconstruction only involves nails to the foot, while the arms were tied.

Joel