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Old 10-20-2008, 02:21 AM   #1
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Default Was Jesus estranged from his family?

Was Jesus estranged from His family? This is the contention of the late preacher and broadcaster Charles Templeton in his book Farewell to God (or via: amazon.co.uk). A possible reason for Jesus’ estrangement would be the fact that He was an illegitimate child, probably teased and derided as a youngster. Due to these experiences, He became very anti-family in general and in his anger also rejected his own family.

There are, as is so often the case, passages from the gospels to support and oppose this hypothesis.

(I am assuming that Jesus’ use of the word ‘brother’ includes personal family, although I suspect he meant it more in the sense of ‘neighbor’).

Pro-Family Passages (taken from the NIV)

Quote:
Mark 5: 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you."

Mark 7: 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." (Also Matthew 15:3)

Matthew 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Matthew 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Matthew 18: 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Matthew 19: 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Luke 2: 51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart.

John 2: 12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

John 19: 25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
Anti-Family Passages

Quote:
Mark 1:19 When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. 20 Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him. (also Matthew 4:21)

Mark 3: 31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." 33 "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. 34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (also Luke 8:19 – 21 and Matthew 12:46-50)

Mark 6: 4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Mark 10: 29 "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. (Also Luke 18:29 and Matthew 19:29)

Mark 13: 12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. (Also Matthew 10:21)

Luke 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"
Luke 9: 59 He said to another man, "Follow me." But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." (also Matthew 8:21) 61 Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family." 62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
Luke 11: 27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." 28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' (Also Luke 12:49) 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

John 2:1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine." 4 "Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:34 AM   #2
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I wonder if the "pro-family" and "anti-family" headings are the right descriptors? Both groups of sayings seem to generally fall under "God first, then family, then self".

The one I find interesting is where Jesus says, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." The apologetic response is that "hate your family" here really means "like your family less than God". It makes the saying more palatable, but does anyone know that captures the sense of the passage more accurately?
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:01 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by GakuseiDon View Post
I wonder if the "pro-family" and "anti-family" headings are the right descriptors? Both groups of sayings seem to generally fall under "God first, then family, then self".
That is the interpretation put forth by Christians, but I've never found the arguments very convincing. The logic seems to be, 'oh, our lovely Jesus could never be anti-family, so how can we interpret his words in a way we can accept?'

Actually, I find the idea of a bitter prophet rather compelling and in keeping with a man who overturned the tables of the money-changers and called for the annihilation of any city that rejected His word.
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Joan of Bark View Post
Actually, I find the idea of a bitter prophet rather compelling and in keeping with a man who overturned the tables of the money-changers and called for the annihilation of any city that rejected His word.
Dear Joan of Bark,

We are dealing with a prophet who has been made popular due to his appearance in a literary work known commonly as the new testament. Many centuries after this epoch, today, we are in a position to question whether or not the personage of jesus ever actually existed, without being executed by the authority of those who used the authority of the NT to perform executions.

Having said this, it is quite possible that we are not dealing with an historical figure, but a fictional and literary figure of the second, third, or heaven forbid, even the fourth century. Therefore it may very well be appropriate to deal with the the question Was Jesus estranged from his family? with the following question ...
Was Clark Kent estranged from his family?
Best wishes,


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Old 10-20-2008, 10:04 AM   #5
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Please avoid derailing the discussion into yet another "Jesus Myth" thread. Thanks in advance,


Amaleq13, BC&H moderator
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:31 PM   #6
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Mark 3:20-21
Quote:
He [Jesus] came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat.
When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
indicates that his family were estranged from/out of sympathy with Jesus.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
Mark 3:20-21
Quote:
He [Jesus] came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat.
When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
indicates that his family were estranged from/out of sympathy with Jesus.

Andrew Criddle
This.

The Jesus of the NT is - in this passage at least - at odds with his family, either because he's embarrassing them with his public preaching, which goes against traditional Judaism/family values or because they believe he's unhinged because of his teachings, or because he really is off his rocker and they can't ever catch him alone without his followers around to lock him up. Seems Jesus keeps them at arms length to prevent this from happening.
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Old 10-21-2008, 05:36 AM   #8
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That Jesus should be alienated from his family in a particular gospel narrative, with his family simply failing to comprehend his extraordinary nature or destiny, or verging on hostile, is an extension of the litrary/prophetic tradition that it must be so with all prophets or elect of God. Joseph and David are the most obvious models, but one finds the motif over and over (Abel, Jacob, Gideon, Jephthah, Hannah, . . . ) The theme is found in Psalms and other Wisdom lit. This sort of rejection serves to enhance the specially chosen status of the prophet/man of God -- he is beyond the comprehension of his kin, guardians, community. It is one of the most established of classic literary foils, and certainly not restricted to biblical narratives.

There is nothing unusual or surprising in an author (e.g. of the Gospel of Mark) opting to depict the Son of Man and Messiah and Son of God being misunderstood and disbelieved by his family and close village community. Given the extent of this trope, especially in the tradition of the biblical literature, there no room for any "criterion of embarrassment" in the equation.

Yes, Jesus was estranged from his family to this extent. There is more evidence for this being a literary question than a historical one in this case particularly.

Is it "derailing the discussion" to point out the clear literary trope behind the question for what it is?


Neil
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:27 AM   #9
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Thanks for that, neilgodfrey. But what about Jesus' generally negative comments about families in general? It appears in some passages that He is demanding a more universal estrangement, and even a contradiction of the fifth commandment (which He claims to endorse).
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joan of Bark View Post
Comments?
If the man really existed, we know nothing about him. We know nothing about his parentage or how well he got along with his family.

Trying to sort fact from fiction in the gospels, assuming that there is any fact, is an exercise in pure speculation.
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