Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 03-03-2013, 06:15 PM

Well, that's the end of Friar Brodie's chances of inheriting the seat of Peter in Rome this month. His chances go up in (black) smoke.....
Apparently he is pursuaded that there isn't a shred of evidence that these epistles were actually written by someone named Paul; that any of these alleged Christian communities existed; or that anyone actually received these epistles. Usually letters are missing parts, but somehow these ones are all complete and are ALWAYS presented as a SET. Meaning that they were ALWAYS together from the time they were written, and did not have to be "collected" since they were never actually written and sent to anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

For the "Academic Church" it is very easy. They do it, they write articles and books about it, and they say that this is how it was. Despite the fact that there is not a shred of evidence as to the texts or beliefs attributed to "Marcion" aside from the claims of those with a monopoly on church history, i.e. the spokesman of the emerging Byzantine regime's official religion.
Even Justin, who allegedly lived in the same town and time as "Marcion" makes no mention of the writings or texts, communities or followers of this Marcion, with epistles and gospels or without them.
There is nothing to corroborate the existence of a Marcion or a Marcionite movement in the second century.

There is a book you would enjoy reading and what it says goes directly to the subject matter of this thread.

The book is Beyond the quest for the historical Jesus, written by a Catholic Dominican priest, Fr. Thomas Louis Brodie who was until recently the director of a biblical research centre in Limerick, Eire.

He says that Jesus never existed and that the epistles are fiction and that Paul is also fiction (Page 145):

Quote:

It was fiction meaning that the figure of Paul was a work of imagination, but this figure had been historicized—presented in a way that made it look history

jakejonesiv · 03-03-2013, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

I suggest that interested persons read Tertullian's Against Marcion 1:1 and decide for themselves. I even copied it into a post above.

Jake

I wasn't questioning what you said, just seeking understand the specifics; in correct context or correct [past] tense. Regards.
.

http://www.tertullian.org/articles/e...rc_04book1.htm

stephan huller · 03-03-2013, 07:19 PM

The only argument I can think of which might explain why Irenaeus (et al) don't mention the Marcionite devotion to the epithet Chrestos is because they had a shared interest in the title:

Quote:

And for this reason, He, [although] beyond comprehension, and boundless and invisible, rendered Himself visible, and comprehensible, and within the capacity of those who believe, that He might vivify those who receive and behold Him through faith. For as His greatness is past finding out, so also His goodness (benignitas) is beyond expression; by which having been seen, He bestows life upon those who see Him. It is not possible to live apart from life, and the means of life is found in fellowship with God; but fellowship with God is to know God, and to enjoy His goodness (et frui benignitate ejus). [AH 4.20.5]

Benignitas = chrestotes

jakejonesiv · 03-03-2013, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The only argument I can think of which might explain why Irenaeus (et al) don't mention the Marcionite devotion to the epithet Chrestos is because they had a shared interest in the title:

Quote:

And for this reason, He, [although] beyond comprehension, and boundless and invisible, rendered Himself visible, and comprehensible, and within the capacity of those who believe, that He might vivify those who receive and behold Him through faith. For as His greatness is past finding out, so also His goodness (benignitas) is beyond expression; by which having been seen, He bestows life upon those who see Him. It is not possible to live apart from life, and the means of life is found in fellowship with God; but fellowship with God is to know God, and to enjoy His goodness (et frui benignitate ejus). [AH 4.20.5]

Benignitas = chrestotes

I want to play too!

1 Peter 2:3; hoti chrestos ho kyrios, "that the Lord is chrestos".
Mmmm... Tastes good!

True knowledge, then, consists in the understanding of Christ,
which Paul terms the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery, which "the
natural man receiveth not," the doctrine of the cross; of which
if any man "taste," he will not accede to the disputations and
quibbles of proud and puffed-up men, who go into matters of
which they have no perception.

From the Lost Fragments of Irenaeus which were discovered in the year 1715
by [Christopher Matthew] Pfaff, a learned Lutheran, in the Royal
Library at Turin. The mss. from which they were taken were neither
catalogued nor classified, and have now disappeared from the
collection.

http://st-takla.org/books/en/ecf/001/0010911.html

stephan huller · 03-03-2013, 08:17 PM

Forgery

jakejonesiv · 03-03-2013, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

When the History of the Church was composed there is NO mention of "Against Marcion" by Tertullian. :hobbyhorse:

Tertullian himself was finaly declared a heretic (a Montanist).
Kind of ironic, isn't it?

Jake

jakejonesiv · 03-03-2013, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Forgery

1 Peter, the lost fragments, Against Heresies, which? All?

stephan huller · 03-03-2013, 08:29 PM

http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2004/...-irenaeus.html

Sheshbazzar · 03-03-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

discovered in the year 1715 ...The mss. from which they were taken were neither catalogued nor classified, and have now disappeared from the collection.

Naturally.

aa5874 · 03-03-2013, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Tertullian himself was finaly declared a heretic (a Montanist).
Kind of ironic, isn't it? :hobbyhorse:

Jake

According to "De Viris Illustribus", Tertullian wrote Against the Church--Not Against Marcion.

We have a list of the writings of Tertullian AGAINST the Church but NOT "Against Marcion"

De Viris Illustribus 24

Quote:

... Of his fine oratorical genius, Tertullian, in the seven books which he wrote against the church on behalf of Montanus, satirically says that he was considered a prophet by many of us...

De Viris Illustribus 40

Quote:

... Tertullian added to the six volumes which he wrote On ecstasy against the church a seventh, directed especially against Apollonius, in which he attempts to defend all which Apollonius refuted...

De Viris Illustribus 53

Quote:

He composed, moreover, directly against the church, volumes: On modesty, On persecution, On fasts, On monogamy, six books On ecstasy, and a seventh which he wrote Against Apollonius. He is said to have lived to a decrepit old age, and to have composed many small works, which are not extant....

We are constantly reminded in De Viris Illustribus that Tertullian wrote Against the Church and we are given the list of books.

Where are the 5 books of "Against Marcion"??

You will NOT ever find "Against Marcion" listed because it was composed AFTER Tertullian was dead for hundred of years.

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03-03-2013, 08:17 PM	#95
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Forgery

03-03-2013, 08:29 PM	#98
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2004/...-irenaeus.html

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