spin

I have some fleeting memory of situations where Marcion's believers were ascendant and had use of the name "christian". The non-Marcionite Jesus believers used another self-reference in that circumstance. Does anyone know what it was and what the sources are? Thanks.

hjalti

IIRC they were called Palutians in Syria.

Source....don't quite remember.

andrewcriddle

According to Ephrem (Ephraim) Syrus, orthodox Christians in Syria were named after Palut an early orthodox bishop.

Source apparently "Hymns Against Heresies" 22. see eg After Bardaisan by pps 129-130.

Andrew Criddle

spin

Thanks to you both. Although this seems restricted to Edessa, it is certainly unexpected by me!

stephan huller

For what it's worth I think the name Palut is an invention. I think the name Palutian comes from the Aramaic word for refugee. See the Acts of Archelaus for the manner in which 'refugees' from the Roman Empire arrived in Edessa (see also the significance there of a figure with the diminutive form of Marcus too).

aa5874

Up to the middle of the 2nd century there was NO such thing as orthodoxy or any standard doctrine for people called "Christians".

This is found in the writings of Justin Martyr's "First Apology" and "Dialogue with Trypho".

"Dialogue with Trypho" XXXV And now, "First Apology" VI It MUST be understood that the Jesus story or Marcion's Phantom story is NOT the origin of "Christians".

stephan huller

Fuck Justin and his Apology! No seriously, the material here survives within the context of a tradition (i.e. the Catholic Church) which promoted the idea of a 'primitive Church' and a plethora of 'heresies' before it began to take over the Christian identity in the late second century. The Catholic Church tradition is no older than the Hypomnemata of Josephus (Hegesippus) and even here it betrays its origin as a reaction against something older.

I think the reason why there are so many heresies reported by the various Church heresiologists is because of what is reported in Celsus's True Word (which emphasizes the chaotic disorganization and in fighting within Christianity c. 170 CE). Celsus read the Hypomnemata in its 'second edition' (i.e. the 170 CE version which IMO added the reference to the Carpocratians and 'Marcellina.' I think the origin of the name 'Marcion' is related to this addition.

The point is that Christianity IMO began in Alexandria and this goes unmentioned in our surviving sources because they themselves are little more than attempts to found an 'alternative' to the real foundation of the tradition. The Hypomnemata develops the myth of the 'Jesus family' in Jerusalem (pure bullshit including the James the brother of Christ business). But interestingly these ideas somehow make it into our canon. So too the virgin birth (which Clement interestingly and delicately corrects in Strom 7.18).

Christianity is really a synthesis of Alexandrianism and the tradition which came with the Hypomnemata to Rome c. 147 CE my guess by the hand of Polycarp but firmly rooted in Rome via the mythological 'Jerusalem Church' story as a counterbalance to allow for the consolidation of authority in Rome.

Just my thoughts AA.

aa5874

" Fuck Justin and his Apology!" You MUST be joking. Justin Martyr is a GOLD MINE.

Justin Martyr is the PRIMARY KEY to the history of the Jesus movement up to the middle of the 2nd century.

The writings of Justin Martyr do support a LATE NT CANON, including the PAULINE writings.

By the way, Justin Martyr was the first to mention your FRIEND Marcion. And he mentioned Marcion and Simon Magus but NOT "Paul".

All I really need is the evidence from antiquity that support your thoughts.

I wil NOT "Fuck Justin and his Apology" since he is a hostile witness against the Church

stephan huller

While I was joking with my comments I don't believe that Justin's surviving works are pristine. The Apologies seem to have been reworked as well as the Dialogue with Trypho. The fact that the texts indicate a plethora of heretics in the period doesn't mean that there wasn't a dominant orthodoxy. Celsus seems for instance to take an unusual interest in Marcionite theology. It must have been very influential c. 170 CE

aa5874

I don't think you were joking because you are even now claiming or implying that writings of Justin Martyr were re-worked or manipulated.

Please state EXACTLY what has been re-worked in the writings of Justin Martyr.

You know Justin Martyr wrote about Marcion but did NOT write about "PAUL", the Pauline BRIGHT LIGHT conversion, the Pauline writings, the Pauline Churches, the Pauline companion called Luke, the Pauline Gospel, the PERSECUTION of "Paul" and the MARTYRDOM of "Paul".

Was it a MARCIONITE or MARCION himself that RE-WORKED the writings of Justin Martyr? How could the CATHOLICS re-work the writings of Justin Martyr and forget to mention "Paul" but remember to write about Marcion.

Please state what the CATHOLICS re-worked in any writings of Justin Martyr.