DMW

I just got finished doing a bunch of research about a person named "Yeshu" that is mentioned in the "uncensored" version of the Babylonian Talmud. Thus far, I have concluded one thing... I don't know any more than I knew when I started this research.

Virtually everything I read from one person is contradicted by stuff I read from someone else... and all of them quote some authority for their claim (other texts, scholars from various time periods, etc.). Heck, I can't even figure out if he was a person or a literary device.

Please help me figure this all out,

DMW

Toto

The Talmud is like that. If you're looking for quick and easy answers, you're in the wrong place.

Why don't you start by listing the sources that you have read.

DCHindley

Well, the two that *I* refer to, and these are both about 100 years old now, are G. R. S. Mead _Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?_, and R. Travers Herford, _Christianity in Talmud and Midrash_.

Mead's book discusses the Jesus traditions in the Talmud and Jewish Midrash, the Toledoth Jeschu, and a little bit bit about Christian reactions to these traditions by the likes of Bishop Epiphanius, etc.

Herford actually provides all the sources, translated into English, from the Mishna, Talmud, and Midrash, that he believes relate to Christianity (or at least *could*) and its key figures (Jesus, James, etc).

What, pray tell, do you think you have read so far? I'll bet it was messy as heck. Someday I plan to summarize it, but have not yet done so.

DCH

DMW

Well, first, I read the passages of the Babylonian Talmud that mention someone named "Yeshu," along with the passages that mention someone that is assumed to be "Yeshu" (because the person is referred to in a retelling of the story - elsewhere - as "Yeshu"). I have also read some stuff from the Tosefta. BTW, I found the stuff in the rabbinic literature by using Google to do a "site search" of a few places (that contain the literature) for the words "Yeshu" and "Jesus."

Since a lot of this wasn't written until long after the events they describe, I am wondering what sources they used for their info. For all I know, they were making stuff up after the Christians made up stuff (for a variety of possible reasons), or maybe they knew something about the origins of Christianity that the Christians, from that time, did not know.

DMW

DMW

Thanks. These look like they will be very helpful.

I don't "think" I have read anything; I KNOW that I have read lots of stuff... whether or not it made any sense, and whether or not I understood it correctly are another matter. ;-)

DMW

EarlDoherty

Read Frank Zindler's "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew (or via: amazon.co.uk)".

I think we need a more modern voice on the subject than hundred-year-old works.

If you're interested in my book review on it: Zindler

Earl Doherty

DCHindley

It looks like just about everything since Herford & Mead's time has had an apologetic axe to grind, usually in the form of Jesus Mythicism in one form or another (Wells, Ellegard, Zindler, etc).

Stephen Goranson, who is a librarian by trade, recommended Morris Goldstein, Jesus in the Jewish Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk) (NY: Macmillan, 1950) esp. pages 147-166.

Otherwise Stephen, who generally only cites genuinely academic secondary literature, could only cite a Masters thesis and a Doctoral dissertation, neither of which are generally available to the average person.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/message/4790

Gil Student gives a review of the whole mess at least as it regards citations from Talmud and such (not Toledot) from a Rabbinic Jewish perspective, with a relatively neutral presentation of the basic facts, at:

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

DCH

Notsri

I would second Stephen Goranson's recommendation; Goldstein's book is excellent. Also worth a read is Joseph Klausner's Jesus of Nazareth (or via: amazon.co.uk).

If you can handle German, Samuel Krauss's Das Leben Jesu nach Jüdischen Quellen is a classic in the field, though its focus, from what I understand, is much more on specifically the Toledot Yeshu and its textual history.

In terms of more recent publications, Peter Schafer just had a book on the subject published back in January, namely, Jesus in the Talmud (or via: amazon.co.uk). I have not yet read it myself.

Personally I don't have much good to say about Frank Zindler's book. His knowledge and treatment of rabbinic literature is inept at some of the more crucial points.

Toto

Comment on Schafer's Jesus in the Talmud: Do Jews have a Jesus Problem?

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