sotto voce

Assuming it occurred and was historical, and is not just a bit of deceit on the part of an organisation that is founded on deceit, that specialises in it? An organisation that had in its possession sufficient pieces of Jesus' cross to build a small galleon?

No, it cannot be both supernatural and imaginary. If it was supernatural event, it was an event, it occurred. Of course, if that was the case, which most people surely doubt, the supernatural agent could have been demonic. Would have been, I'm sure you concur.

But of course that was not the question, was it, stephan. Let's not be accident prone, or wander off into that which could make the Superior-General proud. Of course it is absurd to suppose that an event can be both historical and imaginary.

'between Epiphany and Passover'

Heh. Like trinitarianism, transubstantiation, Mary, Queen of Heaven, purgatory, indulgences, cardinals and the Pink Panther, man-made and imaginary, of course.

Christianity is so terrifying that it has to be put into little boxes, under lock and key, doesn't it. For those with fervid imaginations, or little wit. We, thankfully, do better than that.

outhouse

would you argue that suffering isnt a human condition? :constern01:


and how powerful can a deity be, if it can be made to suffer.?

why create a weak deity? have Israelites created deities before that suffer? yahweh? El? Baal? Asherah?

Iskander

Can god really suffer? Christology discussed this utterly incomprehensible subject for centuries, but I don’t know which doctrine is the official one.

Could you help?

sotto voce

The biblical one is that God suffered, but he did so for gain of some description. It is not biblical that he was made to suffer. There was nobody to make him suffer. The trinitarian heresy may be used to present the argument that he was made to suffer.

Iskander

Where in the bible says that god suffered?

sotto voce

'Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.' Mt 16:21 NIV

'But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.' Heb 2:9 NIV

(Death here refers to spiritual, not physical death.)

'When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats.' 1 Pe 2:23 NIV

Iskander

The man Jesus suffered, but for centuries Christians argued that his divine nature did not.

To questions such as this one: In what sense does not (the impassible Logos) himself suffer?. Cyril of Alexandria replied that it was “by suffering in his own flesh, but not in the nature of his deity.

Pelikan, The emergence of the Catholic Tradition, pg 231

PS.It is too late for me, but one more question: Was the humanity of the Logos, too, the object of worship?

Good night.

sotto voce

Only the old ones who lived a long way from opticians. See what Hebrews says: 'so that he might taste death for everyone.' The death must be spiritual, since bodies die.

'In the beginning was the Logos... but the Logos became flesh.' That does not mean that the supernal became molecular. The molecular body of Jesus permitted his temptation and suffering, but temptation and suffering of his eternal spirit, because, in the biblical analysis, those are all that matter, when this brief life is done. So the Logos suffered. John wrote of a heavenly throne:

'Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the centre of the throne.' Rv 5:6 NIV

So this is the supernal deity, not the mere physical body of Jesus when on earth, showing the sign of suffering.

sotto voce

It is the combination that matters. God could not have been tempted, resisted temptation, died and risen without taking on human form. At least, had he done so, we would not know about it.

outhouse

no the god concept as written pre jesus cant suffer physical pain. he would have been labeled weak.


I think its common knowledge following the mythology that as a man jesus suffered his death, labeled later as one with god or as his son.

so you bring up a good point. with "when" being the key word. When did jesus be associated as one with god. Only then could they claim god suffered


there is a grey area there, no wonder they squabbled for centuries