FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-07-2005, 06:51 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: none
Posts: 9,879
Default Peshitta Question

Judge or anyone else with access to the Syriac Old Testament -

How is Rahab spelt in Joshua and Psalms 87? Is it like the Hebrew רהב or like the Aramaic Matthew רחב? Thanks.
Chris Weimer is offline  
Old 10-08-2005, 06:35 AM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,146
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer
Judge or anyone else with access to the Syriac Old Testament -

How is Rahab spelt in Joshua and Psalms 87? Is it like the Hebrew ??? or like the Aramaic Matthew ???? Thanks.
Chris,

I'm not sure about different fonts but, in the Peshitta OT, as well as in the OS Mt, Rahab is spelled resh-heth-beth.

In Hebrew, Rahab is spelled resh-he-beth.

Regards,

Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky is offline  
Old 10-08-2005, 07:48 PM   #3
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky
Chris,

I'm not sure about different fonts but, in the Peshitta OT, as well as in the OS Mt, Rahab is spelled resh-heth-beth.

In Hebrew, Rahab is spelled resh-he-beth.
In Hebr. Ps 87:4 we find rhb but Josh, eg 2:1, has rxb.

It's hard to understand the Mt 1:5 reference. It doesn't make itself clear, though there is some literary relationship with Ruth 4:21, which, if you have the Pesh. TNK for Ruth, would be interesting to see transliterated. How are the names written, is this mention of rxb there?

Hebr 11:31 and Jam 2:25 are clear references to Josh, but Mt 1:5 doesn't allow such a connection.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:03 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,146
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin
In Hebr. Ps 87:4 we find rhb but Josh, eg 2:1, has rxb.

It's hard to understand the Mt 1:5 reference. It doesn't make itself clear, though there is some literary relationship with Ruth 4:21, which, if you have the Pesh. TNK for Ruth, would be interesting to see transliterated. How are the names written, is this mention of rxb there?

Hebr 11:31 and Jam 2:25 are clear references to Josh, but Mt 1:5 doesn't allow such a connection.

spin
There's no Rahab in Ruth 4:21.

(Ruth 4:18-22 RSV) Now these are the descendants of Perez: Perez was the father of Hezron,
19 Hezron of Ram, Ram of Amminadab,
20 Amminadab of Nahshon, Nahshon of Salmon,
21 Salmon of Boaz, Boaz of Obed,
22 Obed of Jesse, and Jesse of David.

As to Psalms 87:4,

(Psalms 87:4 RSV) Among those who know me I
mention Rahab and Babylon; behold, Philistia and
Tyre, with Ethiopia -- "This one was born there,"
they say.

Here are a couple of Aramaic versions,

Targum Psalms 87:4:
)dkrw [/dkryN#1#/] tw$bxtK mcr)y wbbl)y lyd(y ytK h) ply$t)y wcwr)y (M kw$)y dyN mlyK )ytrb) tmN%

Peshitta Psalms 87:4:
)tdkr _lrxb_ wl=bbl yd(:ty, h) pl$:ty) wcwr [Tyre] w(m) dkw$:y) [Ethiopia], hn) )tyld tmn,

The Targum of Psalms doesn't mention 'Rahab' at all... Peshitta Psalms has rxb.

Regards,

Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky is offline  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:42 AM   #5
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky
There's no Rahab in Ruth 4:21.

Here are a couple of Aramaic versions [of Ps 87:4],

Targum Psalms 87:4:
)dkrw [/dkryN#1#/] tw$bxtK mcr)y wbbl)y lyd(y ytK h) ply$t)y wcwr)y (M kw$)y dyN mlyK )ytrb) tmN%

Peshitta Psalms 87:4:
)tdkr _lrxb_ wl=bbl yd(:ty, h) pl$:ty) wcwr [Tyre] w(m) dkw$:y) [Ethiopia], hn) )tyld tmn,

The Targum of Psalms doesn't mention 'Rahab' at all... Peshitta Psalms has rxb.
The Targum has mcr)y, ie Egypt, which is just an elucidation of Rahab the Hebre rhb, a symbol for Egypt. The Peshitta is odd though, giving rxb rather than the biblical rhb. Still the Peshitta will certainly give rxb for Joshua 2:1, etc., as the Hebrew has the same. The Syriac has lost rhb.

I was fishing for the Peshitta of Ruth 4:21 because there was a slight chance that it might have had some form of Rahab as a possible source for Mt, but also because I wondered how the name Salmon was transliterated into Syriac.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 10-09-2005, 04:16 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: none
Posts: 9,879
Default

Thanks, Yuri. This is still puzzling on where exactly did Matthew get his genealogy list from.

Even though, the chronology still doesn't line up, as Rahab (of Joshua fame) would have been too old to be the great-grandmother of David. Error on Matthew's part, or an unknown Rahab which nothing mentioning her survives?
Chris Weimer is offline  
Old 10-09-2005, 06:40 PM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bli Bli
Posts: 3,135
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer
Thanks, Yuri. This is still puzzling on where exactly did Matthew get his genealogy list from.
Matthew probably got his geneology from the same source or in the same manner as the rest of the HB references he supplies.

They aren't POT, they aren't HB(middle ages version) they aren't LXX.

Where did Paul get his reference to Psalm 68 from?
judge is offline  
Old 10-09-2005, 06:58 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: none
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by judge
Matthew probably got his geneology from the same source or in the same manner as the rest of the HB references he supplies.
I'm starting to doubt this. The first chapters and last chapters of Matthew are in stark contrast to the rest of it.

As for not using the LXX, he very well may have used a version of it - remember there were several versions and even more late (100 BCE - 100 CE) recensions of it.
Chris Weimer is offline  
Old 10-09-2005, 08:45 PM   #9
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer
As for not using the LXX, he very well may have used a version of it - remember there were several versions and even more late (100 BCE - 100 CE) recensions of it.
The DSS clearly shows a Hebrew Vorlage for the Greek, ie some of those differences apparently unique to the LXX are in the Hebrew fragments from Qumran that underlie the Greek translation.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 10-10-2005, 10:31 AM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,146
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin
The Targum has mcr)y, ie Egypt, which is just an elucidation of Rahab the Hebre rhb, a symbol for Egypt. The Peshitta is odd though, giving rxb rather than the biblical rhb. Still the Peshitta will certainly give rxb for Joshua 2:1, etc., as the Hebrew has the same. The Syriac has lost rhb.

I was fishing for the Peshitta of Ruth 4:21 because there was a slight chance that it might have had some form of Rahab as a possible source for Mt, but also because I wondered how the name Salmon was transliterated into Syriac.

spin
Here you go,

(Ruth 4:21 RSV) Salmon of Boaz, Boaz of Obed,

Peshitta:
(Ruth 4:21) w-$l) )wld l-b(z; w-b(z )wld l-(wbd%

Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:51 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.