FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-31-2007, 02:43 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
You cannot have confused believers, as the word implies, believers are just that, 'believers', they can believe anything without evidence. Proven fiction in the bible, the virgin birth and burial of Jesus, is believed by believers to be true and they are not, in the least, confused.

Which brings me to the question, how can believers believe such confusion?

In the end times, many believers will be stumbled and many from "eastern parts and western parts" will rise and take their place in the kingdom. That's because God's activities, prophecies fulfilled and other things will be more convincing to them. So some not believing the Bible before, not necessarily because they just don't accept the stories but simply maybe because they were not raised Christians, ect. will respond to the increased miracles and evidence gradually occurring.

The "believers" that are stumbled in the end are considered to not have been "true believers" but superficial ones, fake Christians, tares, not true wheat.

Larsguy47
Larsguy47 is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 02:45 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo View Post
None of the church fathers starting with Irenaeus appears to have had the tiniest clue, where, in what, the symbology of the gospel texts originated. They approached the gospels as a church doctrine; alas the texts were not written for that. The fathers collectively (with the exception of Origen) promoted what Jan Wojcik (The Road to Emmaus [on amazon (or via: amazon.co.uk)]) brilliantly called the "fallacy of misplaced concreteness". Speaking of tradition of biblical scholarship generally, Wojcik says: In order to deny the validity of any Gnostic imagination or thought in any document considered to be orthodox, it was necessary to claim that scriptural texts referred to literal facts.

Hence the great confusion.

Jiri

The apostacy toward mysticism began even before all the apostles died, and the church became comprehensively corrupted by the time of Constantine.

LG47
Larsguy47 is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 02:47 PM   #33
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico
Posts: 7,984
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer View Post
He's not playing "tricks" though, and no, merely playing "tricks" does not make one a "trickster".
According to the OP he is playing tricks and laughing about it, to me that is trickster behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer View Post
Genocide is a modern concept. Before modern history, it wasn't considered "bad" to wipe out an entire enemy race. You're imposing your modern biases on what the ancients would have considered.
My "modern biases" are the only thing I have to judge a god that portrays himself as both good and timeless. So god had a different set of values in ancient times? I can very well understand what the ancients thought about these things, but how can an all good god order a genocide?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer View Post
No. God didn't make these people unworthy, they were already unworthy, and so god fed their delusion.
So the archeologist that according to the OP god is deceiving, are deluded, unworthy people? So any one who disbelieves in the Bible should be considered unworthy and deserves to be further deceived?
figuer is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 02:50 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionary View Post
This is nothing new. Apologists have been saying that it's so absurd that it must be true for centuries.

Yawn.

The same argument can be made for any episode of Ren & Stimpy.
Perhaps, but some timed events and miracles are supposed to be happening that are, so now they don't have to go on faith as much, they have visible actual proof in their own lives things are happening as prophesied. Those not paying attention don't see these things.

That's what is meant by "those who have much, more will be given.." Those who already have faith will be given the miracles and direct proof of the truth. Now if the umbelievers saw the miracles happening, sure they'd believe. But instead, they don't get the extra stuff, instead what they did have, the reasonable and basics unprovable presumptions become stumbling blocks and they are cast into a darker place of disbelievability than they were before. That's why the Bible says even he who had nothing, what they had it would be taken from them. That is, God will give them deceptions to make them even more assured not to believe, while hiding the miracles. Thus the chasm between the believers and nonbelievers is widened. This is the prophesied purpose of Christ's second coming, to separate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the weeds, etc. Those true will be isolated in a safe place, the rest will be aligned for destruction.

That's what the Bible says, anyway, but no worry if it's not actually true, right?

"They took no note until the flood came and swept them away..."

LG47
Larsguy47 is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 02:52 PM   #35
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 528
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Weimer View Post
He does? Loki? In what way? Please support your response with evidence, if you don't mind. Everything I've read about Loki (which admittedly isn't much) is that he only played tricks on gods. Is there human interaction that I'm unfamiliar with?
Don't you see?

Loki only pretended to play tricks on the gods. In reality his whole purpose was to trick humans into thinking he was playing tricks on the gods, instead of playing the greatest trick of all on mankind - fooling them into thinking he hadn't played any tricks on them, like this.

Ren and Stimpy? How could anyone deny their reality after watching this video?

Ren and Stimpy's Gayest moment <-- Click Here.
Nazaroo is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 02:57 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wordy View Post
A likable explanation for those tricky writings could be the theory of "signs of loyalty hard to fake".

You are supposed to show your loyalty by being prepared to be teased or even punished for having such foolish faith in Jesus as God incarnated. The set up is done that way to sift out the wheat from the chaft the not worthy who are going to burn forever.

By being able to believe in totally crazy claims you show you are a loyal believer and worthy of The Kingdom of God. For his truth are not the truth of man.
That's just about right! Only now the miracles are starting to happen and prophesies fulfilled. There are time limits.

For instance, you generally know the "70 weeks" in which the messiah arrives. Well 70 weeks is 490 years. 490 years is 10 jubilees. Some have perceived this is just one day in a week of 7 days of 10 jubilees, so that the final jubilee is fulfilled by the Jews return to Palestine. But that's a limited number! IT can only be fulfilled once. 7 x 49 is 3430 years. Thus knowing that 70 weeks in Jesus' time ended in 36BCE. You can just count the "days" until our time to figure out when the last 49 years will be which also fulfills the 70th week that would have begun when the JEws were still in Egypt. That is, if 455BCE-36BCE was day 3 of the week, then 4 days later would end the week in 1996 and it would begin in 1435BCE. So based upon 36CE, the 70th week becomes a big deal during our day from 1947-1996. Of course, the Jews did return in 1947.

So a major, one-time chronology event happened right on time.

Thus while for so long the nonbelievers were claiming blind faith and the "tease" but it would not always be that way once some of these time lines start to run out. It's been 3430 years from now back to the time of the Exodus!! So we have more now than blind faith, it's not the same story any more.

LG47
Larsguy47 is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:02 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cege View Post
No wondering it's so confusing to non-believers, since even believers are so confused!

You appear to be saying that the dead body of Jesus, minus the spirit Jesus, was taken from the tomb and given (to whom?) as a sacrifice that covered the sins of all mankind (living? dead? both?).

If the body covered all the sins of mankind, what need would there be for anyone to believe? They'd be covered, either way.

Jesus was an angel first, Michael the Archangel, God's only-begotten son. He was transferred to human form to be a man and then sacrificed. When he died he had access to his body as an angel to materialize that body if he wanted. So when Jesus was invisible he was a spirit, but if he materialized, he was flesh and no longer spirit. He is never both. It's two different realms. When Jesus went up to heaven, he gave up his right to materialize a human body; that was given in sacrifice for the world, childless, thus Jesus' potential children equalled that of Adam's children and thus could be in exchange.

LG47
Larsguy47 is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:07 PM   #38
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 528
Default

Its all just sour grapes.


Atheists and agnostics are whining cause God lied to them for being such shits.

Maybe God has a sense of humour after all.
Nazaroo is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:18 PM   #39
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico
Posts: 7,984
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larsguy47 View Post
Jesus was an angel first, Michael the Archangel, God's only-begotten son. He was transferred to human form to be a man and then sacrificed. When he died he had access to his body as an angel to materialize that body if he wanted. So when Jesus was invisible he was a spirit, but if he materialized, he was flesh and no longer spirit. He is never both. ......
I think the Conventional Christians would burn you at the stake (if they still could), for believing this particular version of the fairy tale.
figuer is offline  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:22 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by figuer View Post
What an honest and just God (and with a sense of humor too)!!

He chooses some for damnation and others for comdemnation.
And he laughs and enjoys the way his "tricks" confuse people.

Tell me, how is this practical-joker god superior to Zeus, or Hermes, or Venus or Hera? Actually he reminds me of the trickster Loki.
Wake up and smell the tobacco. God looked into the womb of Rebekka and saw twins, Jacob and Esau. Esau was the elder and Jacob the younger. But even though the older has the double inheritance based upon the Archangel Michael's first-born place in heaven, still the one doing God's will he manipulates into the front position.

So think about that. Here these two babies were not born yet and God is looking at their DNA and making choices: "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

God and Jesus are actually kind of temperamental Gods. But that's okay, they make sure you KNOW that! He warn you about it.

Anyway, if you openly reject God, he doesn't just let you walk away with you head in the air, necessarily. He sort of manipulates you to the edge of a cliff and then Jesus comes up from behind you and pushes you over! So he loves his own but hates all others. There's no in between.

But, of course, some people like playing the fence. So now what's happening is that tests are going on to force you away from the middle to one side of the other.

When it started to reign in Noah's day, the ark door had been closed already for seven days. When Christ comes to inspect in our time you will be marked for salvation for some time before the actual judgment. So it won't be what you decide to do once it is clear what is going on. It's what happened last week when you passed that homeless person... or helped him. That's what you'll be judged on.

So God and Christ are trying to pull the fencers toward life as best they can, but if they resist too much and are too stubborn, they push and seduce them to self destruct toward the other side. That's what God did to Satan. He was a murderer in his heart and God gave him a chance to carry that out so he could be sentenced to death.

If Christ suddenly appeared in the sky and it was clear he was taking over the world, of course everybody would believe. How could they not? But believing at the last minute isn't the same as being allowed to live under the new government. They will check your "test" way back when and see if at that time you were approved. If not...

Thus lots of people who don't think they should get in, will! They will be surprised they have been chosen. But so many other pseudo-Christians will quickly run up to get in to capture what they have been hoping for all their lives but only superficially, preaching but not practicing, and Christ will reject them.

It's the Good Samaritan Story, only people don't realize that person on the road that was in need was actually Christ himself, the king. Had the scribe and the priest known that, they would have bent over backwards to help. But they didn't.

I must admit it's a very HARD LINE!! People who have been good all their lives but who at the last minute turn away -- all they have done all their lives will not save them. But some who were nonbelievers all their lives will at the last minute wake up and repent and believe, then all their life of nonbelieving will not be held against them:

23 “‘Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘[and] not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?’

24 “‘Now when someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and actually does injustice; according to all the detestable things that the wicked one has done he keeps doing and he is living, none of all his righteous acts that he has done will be remembered. For his unfaithfulness that he has committed and for his sin with which he has sinned, for them he will die.

25 “‘And YOU people will certainly say: “The way of Jehovah is not adjusted right.” Hear, please, O house of Israel. Is not my own way adjusted right? Are not the ways of YOU people not adjusted right?

26 “‘When someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and he actually does injustice and dies on account of them, for his injustice that he has done he will die.

27 “‘And when someone wicked turns back from his wickedness that he has committed and proceeds to execute justice and righteousness, he is the one that will preserve his own soul alive. 28 When he sees and he turns back from all his transgressions that he has done, he will positively keep living. He will not die.


LG47
Larsguy47 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:14 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.