Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 02-04-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

If you read that story you will notice this event happens when Israel was corrupted through Baal worship (read ch.10). Baal worship included human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was agianst the law of Moses...

No, it was NOT.

Wrong again! :wave:

Xianthe · 02-04-2008, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatertot

So I was discussing with some friends on whether the stories in the old testament pointed to an angry/vindictive god. Someone brought up the story of Jepthath from judges 11, and it intrigued me. I have heard two theories on the story, that it either refers to a literal killing of the daughter, or that he sent her away to someplace where she would never marry. I unfortunately have no skills in literary criticism or ancient hebrew and I would appreciate it if some here could enlighten me.

I'm sorry. I woke up too early for this. Reading it I was suddenly stricken with the vision of an apocalyptic future where surviving children uncover CDs of daytime television episodes from Days of Our Lives and found a religion based on them. I'm going back to bed.

Ray Moscow · 02-04-2008, 02:49 AM

He killed his daughter. That was the whole point to the story: even rash vows to Yahweh must be kept.

Amaleq13 · 02-04-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

God used Jephath to deliver Israel but the belief that God required human sacrifice was an error on Jephath's part...

An error God not only failed to correct but appeared to confirm through Jephthath's victory.

The author was apparently less concerned about God's tacit acceptance of a human sacrifice than warning about the dangers of holy vows to God.

Timetospend · 02-04-2008, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

God used Jephath to deliver Israel but the belief that God required human sacrifice was an error on Jephath's part...

An error God not only failed to correct but appeared to confirm through Jephthath's victory.

The author was apparently less concerned about God's tacit acceptance of a human sacrifice than warning about the dangers of holy vows to God.

The book of Judges was written to expose the errors of Israel's leaders in departing from God's during a dark time in the nation. Its closing statement reads:
Judg 21:25
25 In those days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own eyes.
NRSV

Of course, the point is that God was supposed to be king in Israel in those days. Errors on the part of Israel's major leaders were:
-Barak...depended on a woman for strength rather than God.
-Gideon...became king-like, while denouncing a human king in Israel
-Jephthah...made a foolish promise to God and then selfishly kept it
-Samson...seduced by women, keeping him from doing God's work.

By the way, all of these men made it into the Hebrews 11 for their faith. As such, according to the Bible, it is not a matter of them not believing or wanting to follow God. They erred for other various reasons.

Thanks,

Darklighter · 02-04-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

If you read that story you will notice this event happens when Israel was corrupted through Baal worship (read ch.10). Baal worship included human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was agianst the law of Moses, but the law of Moses was largely forgotten through Baal. God used Jephath to deliver Israel but the belief that God required human sacrifice was an error on Jephath's part who like the rest of Gilead who lived amidst the Ammonites was corrupted and influence by Baal worship. :wave:

As with all your other arguements, what you're saying isn't supported by the Bible. But if your premise is correct (it isn't...), why didn't God inspire the writer to say that Jepthah sinned? Wouldn't that alleviate unnecessary confusion? If god places such a high value on humans getting to know him and his personal attributes, wouldn't that clarification be VERY essential to a proper understanding God's personality? But yet God decided to leave out one short sentence that could've supported your point. Therfore your "point" only stands on wishes and dreams.

Misogyny, genocide, ninja she-bears massacring childeren, accepting human sacrifice... are you beginning to get a clearer picture of your God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

This is certainly how I've understood the story. I'd never heard of the idea that she was simply sent away...I don't know how that could be wrung out of the text.

Growing up, the "sent away" theory was always taught to me. And even when I was young I had trouble "wringing" that out of the text. I can remember thinking, "Well if they meant that she was 'devoted to God's service', why didn't they just say so?" Certainly there were sufficient Hebrew words available to convey the proper meaning. But thats just another "anomoly" that the perfect word of God contains.

sugarhitman · 02-04-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

If you read that story you will notice this event happens when Israel was corrupted through Baal worship (read ch.10). Baal worship included human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was agianst the law of Moses, but the law of Moses was largely forgotten through Baal. God used Jephthah to deliver Israel but the belief that God required human sacrifice was an error on Jephtha's part who like the rest of Gilead who lived amidst the Ammonites was corrupted and influence by Baal worship. :wave:

Except your theory goes against the character of Jephthath as evidenced within the texts preceding his vow, where in he is clearly identified as a devotee of Yahweh, and is Yahweh's chosen instrument.

Quote:

Jdg 11:27 Wherefore I have not sinned against thee, but thou doest me wrong to war against me: YAHWEH the Judge be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon.

Jdg 11:29 Then the Spirit of YAHWEH came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over [unto] the children of Ammon.

Jdg 11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto YAHWEH, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

Jdg 11:32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and YAHWEH delivered them into his hands.

There is nothing within the text that would indicate that Jephthah had any involvement at all in the practices of Baal worship, or that he was violating any commandment of YAHWEH his elohim.
And even Hebrews 11:32 honors him, and presents him as an admirable example of living by "Faith".
He is presented in the text as an Israelite hero, A man of great faith, one who communed with YAHWEH his elohim, and upon whom "the Spirit of YAHWEH came", and under Whose "SPIRIT" and advisement he acted.

And here you are found joining in with those demeaning the character of Jephthah the servant of YAHWEH.
Tisk tisk 'Hitman, Did Yahweh raise you up, and send you forth to join the league of assassins to assassinate the character of his faithful servant Jephthah?
"YAHWEH the Judge be judge this day" whether you do his servant justice in your charge.

Are the men of God without sin? Nope. Human sacrifice was against the Law of Moses. It is clear by Japheth's foolish oath that his view of God was not perfect.

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, NOR DID IT COME INTO MY HEART."

God gave no such command nor did it come into His heart for Israel to sacrifice their children to Him or to any other god. Human sacrifices were introduced to Israel through Baal worship.

"There shall not be found among you ANYONE who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire..." Tell me can you find anywhere in the Laws of Moses or the NT laws which shows that God accepts human sacrifices? Indeed human sacrfices which was once practiced by all nations owe its end to Judasim. Japheth may have been a man of faith but he was in error, just as all are sooner or later. :wave:

reniaa · 02-04-2008, 11:21 AM

I agree with timetospeed the warts and all telling of OT stories is often used against God as a way of condemning him but I think I prefer the more honest tales even if they don't paint a pretty picture of leaders and their decisions very human despite there faith in God, even moses made his mistakes and we hear of them.

And I get the feeling those condemning God for OT leaders actions are kinda trying to say God should be behind people stick in hand to whack them one if they do things against his wishes. next you'll be saying God should have stopped cain murdering his brother?

sugarhitman · 02-04-2008, 11:48 AM

They have to find error in God so they themselves can be justified. So they mangle the texts searching desperately to find something which they can accuse God of....just like the wicked self-rightous Pharasees who searched for evil in Jesus.

Mageth · 02-04-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Tell me can you find anywhere in the Laws of Moses or the NT laws which shows that God accepts human sacrifices?

Well, there was that Jesus fellow...

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02-04-2008, 02:49 AM	#13
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	He killed his daughter. That was the whole point to the story: even rash vows to Yahweh must be kept.

02-04-2008, 11:21 AM	#18
reniaa Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: russia Posts: 1,108	I agree with timetospeed the warts and all telling of OT stories is often used against God as a way of condemning him but I think I prefer the more honest tales even if they don't paint a pretty picture of leaders and their decisions very human despite there faith in God, even moses made his mistakes and we hear of them. And I get the feeling those condemning God for OT leaders actions are kinda trying to say God should be behind people stick in hand to whack them one if they do things against his wishes. next you'll be saying God should have stopped cain murdering his brother?

02-04-2008, 11:48 AM	#19
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	They have to find error in God so they themselves can be justified. So they mangle the texts searching desperately to find something which they can accuse God of....just like the wicked self-rightous Pharasees who searched for evil in Jesus.

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