Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Carrie · 03-04-2004, 08:40 AM

Supposedly Paul wrote many of the epistles. He tells about all the great stuff he's done, like convert all these people. And perform miracles.

There must have been people like him who "spread the good news." But he couldn't have been doing miracles. Why would he tell lies? Did other people add that stuff about him later?
I've also heard that some writers pretended to be Paul in their writings. Is it possible that Paul was not a real man either?

What do we know of Paul from history?

I am so confused about all this stuff

I have a basic understanding of The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty, but I need to read it again. It's a complicated book, and I guess I'm looking for real basic and simple explanations. That's all my poor ADHD riddled brain can handle.

I also have to find a simple understandable way of explaining all this stuff to my Christian husband who has no patience for reading such book himself. Luckily he wants me to tell him what I've been learning, once I figure it all out that is.

Rymmie1981 · 03-04-2004, 10:00 AM

If you have basic cable, turn it to TBN, witness individuals who really, actually believe that the power of God Almighty flows through them to heal sickness, pay off mortgages, and eliminate differences between incompatible people.

I know that some of the people on TBN are faking the shizzle out of their congregations and the rest of the people they work with on that channel. But, I have met a considerable number of them and they truly believe. Paul could have been similar, but one verse puts his whole ministry into a different light when you read it carefully.

2Cor. 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

2Cor. 12:17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?

2Cor. 12:18 I desired Titus, and with [him] I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? [walked we] not in the same steps?

2Cor. 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but [we do] all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

The Corinthians apparently did not want Paul to come a third time, which is why he is writing this letter. He says that, even though didn't want anything to do with him, he deceived them by sending his whipping boy, Titus. Then, he says that it's OK, because he answers to God and it was for their own good. Read all of Chapter 12 for a good context.

Toto · 03-04-2004, 10:39 AM

Short answer - we know next to nothing about Paul from history, except that there are some letters apparently written by him. However, it is most probable that later Christians added material to the letters. It is virtually certain that later Christians wrote letters that were attributed to him, whether you call this forgery or not.

I cannot think of an instance in Paul's letters where he claims to have done miracles. Most of those claims come from the Acts of the Apostles, a novella about a character initially called Saul, later Paul, who travels around, converting people, having adventures, and doing swashbuckling deeds on the sea, ending up in Rome. Christians like to think that this story has some historical value, but I'm skeptical (as are many scholars).

Of course, the fact that little is known for sure about Paul has not kept people from writing lots of books about him.

The Jesus Seminar has a Paul Seminar, but I haven't seen anything from them.

The problem with Paul is that religious reformers like to blame everything that has gone wrong with Christianity on Paul. They like to claim that Jesus was the good guy, but Paul came along later and perverted his simple message, and we ended up with the corrupt church you see today. I think there are problems with this.

Carrie · 03-04-2004, 03:40 PM

Where did Paul get his ideas about Jesus? I don't know if I believe in a guy named Jesus that really lived. At least if he did, Jesus didn't do all that was claimed about him.

So if Paul wrote before the gospels were written, and he wrote even before the gospel of Thomas and the Q document, again, where did he get his beliefs?

Did the idea of Jesus maybe start with the Essenes, or another group? Was the story of Jesus an oral tradition at first, and then written down by someone. Who first wrote about Jesus Christ?
I don't know if there's an answer to this.....

Toto · 03-04-2004, 04:51 PM

The Fabrication of the Christ Myth.

Paul might have gotten his idea of Jesus from the prevailing views of his time, which included ideas about a Jewish redeemer - a spiritual heir to Joshua the son of Nun, who was Moses' successor. He might have picked up some ideas from the pagans in his hometown of Tarsus, who worshipped Mithras, although we don't know much about that.

Postcard73 · 03-06-2004, 10:55 AM

I split out the side conversation about TV evangelists and moved it to M&PC.

Scott (Postcard73)
BC&H Moderator

03-06-2004, 02:26 PM

No one can be "certain," but if we could somehow unearth an original, it would be interesting. I say that because in most of the letters attributed to that other Paul, he writes that he is now writing in his own hand. Presumably, such was done to ensure that there was no doubt about the authenticity of the letter that would thereafter be arriving at its intended destination.

capnkirk · 03-06-2004, 11:06 PM

In 1 Cor 9:19-23, Paul brags that he has made himself all things to all people in order to get followers. To Jews, he seemed like a Jew. To those under the Law, he seemed like he also was under the Law. To those without the Law, he seemed like he also was without the Law.

It would be hard to pin down this kind of character even if he lived today.

Magdlyn · 03-12-2004, 07:03 AM

Paul was smart, Paul was crafty, Paul was a mystic. He was enthusiastic, but rather unbalanced, celibate, (perhaps because he was gay?), and was not a Pharisee as he claims, perhaps not even a Jew.

Bernard Muller · 03-12-2004, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Toto:
I cannot think of an instance in Paul's letters where he claims to have done miracles.

I think he did:
Ro15:18b-19a "... what I [Paul] have said and done -- by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit ..."
2Co12:11b-12 "... I [Paul] am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. The things that mark an apostle -- signs, wonders and miracles --were done among you with great perseverance."

03-04-2004, 08:40 AM	#1
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Was Paul a real person? What about his miracle claims? Supposedly Paul wrote many of the epistles. He tells about all the great stuff he's done, like convert all these people. And perform miracles. There must have been people like him who "spread the good news." But he couldn't have been doing miracles. Why would he tell lies? Did other people add that stuff about him later? I've also heard that some writers pretended to be Paul in their writings. Is it possible that Paul was not a real man either? What do we know of Paul from history? I am so confused about all this stuff I have a basic understanding of The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty, but I need to read it again. It's a complicated book, and I guess I'm looking for real basic and simple explanations. That's all my poor ADHD riddled brain can handle. I also have to find a simple understandable way of explaining all this stuff to my Christian husband who has no patience for reading such book himself. Luckily he wants me to tell him what I've been learning, once I figure it all out that is.

03-04-2004, 10:00 AM	#2
Rymmie1981 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: At the Edge of the River Posts: 499	TBN If you have basic cable, turn it to TBN, witness individuals who really, actually believe that the power of God Almighty flows through them to heal sickness, pay off mortgages, and eliminate differences between incompatible people. I know that some of the people on TBN are faking the shizzle out of their congregations and the rest of the people they work with on that channel. But, I have met a considerable number of them and they truly believe. Paul could have been similar, but one verse puts his whole ministry into a different light when you read it carefully. 2Cor. 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. 2Cor. 12:17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? 2Cor. 12:18 I desired Titus, and with [him] I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? [walked we] not in the same steps? 2Cor. 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but [we do] all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. The Corinthians apparently did not want Paul to come a third time, which is why he is writing this letter. He says that, even though didn't want anything to do with him, he deceived them by sending his whipping boy, Titus. Then, he says that it's OK, because he answers to God and it was for their own good. Read all of Chapter 12 for a good context.

03-06-2004, 11:06 PM	#8
capnkirk Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: where no one has gone before Posts: 735	Paul about himself. In 1 Cor 9:19-23, Paul brags that he has made himself all things to all people in order to get followers. To Jews, he seemed like a Jew. To those under the Law, he seemed like he also was under the Law. To those without the Law, he seemed like he also was without the Law. It would be hard to pin down this kind of character even if he lived today.

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03-04-2004, 10:39 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Short answer - we know next to nothing about Paul from history, except that there are some letters apparently written by him. However, it is most probable that later Christians added material to the letters. It is virtually certain that later Christians wrote letters that were attributed to him, whether you call this forgery or not. I cannot think of an instance in Paul's letters where he claims to have done miracles. Most of those claims come from the Acts of the Apostles, a novella about a character initially called Saul, later Paul, who travels around, converting people, having adventures, and doing swashbuckling deeds on the sea, ending up in Rome. Christians like to think that this story has some historical value, but I'm skeptical (as are many scholars). Of course, the fact that little is known for sure about Paul has not kept people from writing lots of books about him. The Jesus Seminar has a Paul Seminar, but I haven't seen anything from them. The problem with Paul is that religious reformers like to blame everything that has gone wrong with Christianity on Paul. They like to claim that Jesus was the good guy, but Paul came along later and perverted his simple message, and we ended up with the corrupt church you see today. I think there are problems with this.

03-04-2004, 03:40 PM	#4
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Where did Paul get his ideas about Jesus? I don't know if I believe in a guy named Jesus that really lived. At least if he did, Jesus didn't do all that was claimed about him. So if Paul wrote before the gospels were written, and he wrote even before the gospel of Thomas and the Q document, again, where did he get his beliefs? Did the idea of Jesus maybe start with the Essenes, or another group? Was the story of Jesus an oral tradition at first, and then written down by someone. Who first wrote about Jesus Christ? I don't know if there's an answer to this.....

03-04-2004, 04:51 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. Paul might have gotten his idea of Jesus from the prevailing views of his time, which included ideas about a Jewish redeemer - a spiritual heir to Joshua the son of Nun, who was Moses' successor. He might have picked up some ideas from the pagans in his hometown of Tarsus, who worshipped Mithras, although we don't know much about that.

03-06-2004, 10:55 AM	#6
Postcard73 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Roanoke, VA. Posts: 2,198	I split out the side conversation about TV evangelists and moved it to M&PC. Scott (Postcard73) BC&H Moderator

03-06-2004, 02:26 PM	#7
Paul5204 Guest Posts: n/a	No one can be "certain," but if we could somehow unearth an original, it would be interesting. I say that because in most of the letters attributed to that other Paul, he writes that he is now writing in his own hand. Presumably, such was done to ensure that there was no doubt about the authenticity of the letter that would thereafter be arriving at its intended destination.

03-12-2004, 07:03 AM	#9
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Paul was smart, Paul was crafty, Paul was a mystic. He was enthusiastic, but rather unbalanced, celibate, (perhaps because he was gay?), and was not a Pharisee as he claims, perhaps not even a Jew.

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