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Old 06-08-2005, 09:48 AM   #1
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Default leprosy in Is 53:4?

hey all,

just wanted to get the information straight on this. the last thing i am is a Biblical scholar, so i would like some opinions on why it does or doesn't mean "stricken" as in by leprosy in this verse. here's what my (cursory) research leads me to think:

Isa53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken (naga'), Smitten (naga') of God, and afflicted.
click for source

compared contextually to:
2Ki15:5 The LORD struck(naga`) the king, so that he was leprous to the day of his death, and lived in a separate house.
click for source

naga': to touch, reach, strike
1. (Qal)
1. to touch
2. to strike
3. to reach, extend to
4. to be stricken 1a
2. stricken (participle)
3. (Niphal) to be stricken, be defeated
4. (Piel) to strike
5. (Pual) to be stricken (by disease)
6. (Hiphil) to cause to touch, reach, approach, arrive
1. to cause to touch, apply
2. to reach, extend, attain, arrive, come
3. to approach (of time)
4. to befall (of fate)

is the word used, in context, for leprosy?

my thoughts were solidified by a trip to jewishencyclopedia.com and found this under eschatology:

The origin and character of the Messiah of the tribe of Joseph, or Ephraim, are rather obscure. It seems that the assumed superhuman character of the Messiah appeared to be in conflict with the tradition that spoke of his death, and therefore the figure of a Messiah who would come from the tribe of Joseph, or Ephraim, instead of from Judah, and who would willingly undergo suffering for his nation and fall as victim in the Gog and Magog war, was createdby the haggadists (see Pesik. R. 37; comp. 34.).

To him was referred the passage, "They shall look unto him whom they have pierced and mourn for him" (Zech. xii. 10, Hebr.; Suk. 52a), as well as the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah (see Justin, "Dialogus cum Tryphone," lxviii. and xc.; comp. Sanh. 98b, "the Messiah's name is 'The Leper' ['ḥiwwara'; comp. Isa. liii. 4]; the passage quoted in Martini, "Pugio Fidei," p. 417, cited by Gfrörer [l.c. 267] and others, is scarcely genuine; see Eppstein, "Bereshit Rabbati," 1888, p. 26). The older haggadah referred also "the wild ox" who with his horns will "push the people to the ends of the earth" (Deut. xxxiii. 17, Hebr.) to the Ephraimite Messiah (Gen. R. lxxv.; comp. Num. R. xiv.). The Messiah from the tribe of Ephraim falls in the battle with Gog and Magog, whereas the Messiah from the house of David kills the superhuman hostile leader (Angro-mainyush) with the breath of his mouth; then he is universally recognized as king (Suk. 52a; comp. Targ. Yer. to Ex. xl. 9, 11; Targ. to Isa. xi. 4, Cant. iv. 5; Sefer Zerubbabel, in Jellinek, "B. H." ii. 56, where he is introduced with the name of Nehemiah b. Ḥushiel; comp. l.c. 60 et seq., iii. 80 et seq.).

click for source

i would appreciate any comments on this. i did a search for it here and couldn't find anything relevant. apologies if it has already been brought up (or it is patently absurd to even suggest). :Cheeky:
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Old 06-09-2005, 03:28 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martini
hey all,

just wanted to get the information straight on this. the last thing i am is a Biblical scholar, so i would like some opinions on why it does or doesn't mean "stricken" as in by leprosy in this verse. here's what my (cursory) research leads me to think:

Isa53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken (naga'), Smitten (naga') of God, and afflicted.
click for source

compared contextually to:
2Ki15:5 The LORD struck(naga`) the king, so that he was leprous to the day of his death, and lived in a separate house.
click for source

naga': to touch, reach, strike
1. (Qal)
1. to touch
2. to strike
3. to reach, extend to
4. to be stricken 1a
2. stricken (participle)
3. (Niphal) to be stricken, be defeated
4. (Piel) to strike
5. (Pual) to be stricken (by disease)
6. (Hiphil) to cause to touch, reach, approach, arrive
1. to cause to touch, apply
2. to reach, extend, attain, arrive, come
3. to approach (of time)
4. to befall (of fate)

is the word used, in context, for leprosy?

my thoughts were solidified by a trip to jewishencyclopedia.com and found this under eschatology:

The origin and character of the Messiah of the tribe of Joseph, or Ephraim, are rather obscure. It seems that the assumed superhuman character of the Messiah appeared to be in conflict with the tradition that spoke of his death, and therefore the figure of a Messiah who would come from the tribe of Joseph, or Ephraim, instead of from Judah, and who would willingly undergo suffering for his nation and fall as victim in the Gog and Magog war, was createdby the haggadists (see Pesik. R. 37; comp. 34.).

To him was referred the passage, "They shall look unto him whom they have pierced and mourn for him" (Zech. xii. 10, Hebr.; Suk. 52a), as well as the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah (see Justin, "Dialogus cum Tryphone," lxviii. and xc.; comp. Sanh. 98b, "the Messiah's name is 'The Leper' ['ḥiwwara'; comp. Isa. liii. 4]; the passage quoted in Martini, "Pugio Fidei," p. 417, cited by Gfrörer [l.c. 267] and others, is scarcely genuine; see Eppstein, "Bereshit Rabbati," 1888, p. 26). The older haggadah referred also "the wild ox" who with his horns will "push the people to the ends of the earth" (Deut. xxxiii. 17, Hebr.) to the Ephraimite Messiah (Gen. R. lxxv.; comp. Num. R. xiv.). The Messiah from the tribe of Ephraim falls in the battle with Gog and Magog, whereas the Messiah from the house of David kills the superhuman hostile leader (Angro-mainyush) with the breath of his mouth; then he is universally recognized as king (Suk. 52a; comp. Targ. Yer. to Ex. xl. 9, 11; Targ. to Isa. xi. 4, Cant. iv. 5; Sefer Zerubbabel, in Jellinek, "B. H." ii. 56, where he is introduced with the name of Nehemiah b. Ḥushiel; comp. l.c. 60 et seq., iii. 80 et seq.).

click for source

i would appreciate any comments on this. i did a search for it here and couldn't find anything relevant. apologies if it has already been brought up (or it is patently absurd to even suggest). :Cheeky:
(This is only a comment on the Talmudic use of Isaiah 53:4 not on its original meaning.)

The standard text of tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud reads
Quote:
And the rabbis said: The Leper [(ch)ivra] of the house of Rabbi is his name, as [Is. liii. 4]: "But only our diseases [(ch)olayenu] did he bear himself, and our pains he carried: while we indeed esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted."
However in the Pugio Fidei a medieval anti-Jewish work by Martini a Jewish convert to Christianity the passage is rendered
Quote:
The school of Rabbi says: His name is the Afflicted One [(ch)ulya] as [Is. liii. 4]: But only our diseases [(ch)olayenu] did he bear himself......"
This version with its parallel between (ch)ulya and (ch)olayenu makes better sense than the standard text with (ch)ivra and (ch)olayenu and is regarded by the Jewish scholar Fishbane as probably the original.

Hence the reference to 'the leper' in the comment on Isaiah 53:4 in the present Talmud is probably not original but replaces an earlier Talmudic teaching about a suffering Messiah.

(See Fishbane 'Midrashic Theologies of Messianic Suffering')

Andrew Criddle
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:22 PM   #3
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thanks for the information. do you know where i can look to find the oldest Hebrew traditions regarding this passage? i am very curious as to why this verse does not imply leprosy.
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Old 06-11-2005, 01:04 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martini
thanks for the information. do you know where i can look to find the oldest Hebrew traditions regarding this passage? i am very curious as to why this verse does not imply leprosy.
The verse may well imply grave illness. But IIUC there is nothing in its language that explicitly claims that the illness is leprosy.

(Although the passage as a whole seems to refer to the sufferer in Isaiah 52-53 being gravely facially disfigured.)

Andrew Criddle
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Old 06-11-2005, 01:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martini
thanks for the information. do you know where i can look to find the oldest Hebrew traditions regarding this passage? i am very curious as to why this verse does not imply leprosy.
The latest opinions is that early (circa the beginning of the christian era and before) references to leprosy were hardly proof of the disease's existence or that any given case of "leprosy" was actually leprosy.

Even to the present day, diagnosis is difficult without an actual culture. And we do know that the "lepers" of the middle ages may have been suffering from an endless series of skin ailments ranging from psoriasis to scrofula.

I don't know if that helps any, but keep in mind that the verse may imply just about any disease.
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:12 PM   #6
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Default The Strange Chapter Of Dr. Jewkill And Mr. Hymn

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewCriddle
(This is only a comment on the Talmudic use of Isaiah 53:4 not on its original meaning.)
The standard text of tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud reads
Quote:
Quote:
And the rabbis said: The Leper [(ch)ivra] of the house of Rabbi is his name, as [Is. liii. 4]: "But only our diseases [(ch)olayenu] did he bear himself, and our pains he carried: while we indeed esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted."
However in the Pugio Fidei a medieval anti-Jewish work by Martini a Jewish convert to Christianity the passage is rendered
Quote:
Quote:
The school of Rabbi says: His name is the Afflicted One [(ch)ulya] as [Is. liii. 4]: But only our diseases [(ch)olayenu] did he bear himself......"
This version with its parallel between (ch)ulya and (ch)olayenu makes better sense than the standard text with (ch)ivra and (ch)olayenu and is regarded by the Jewish scholar Fishbane as probably the original.
Hence the reference to 'the leper' in the comment on Isaiah 53:4 in the present Talmud is probably not original but replaces an earlier Talmudic teaching about a suffering Messiah.
(See Fishbane 'Midrashic Theologies of Messianic Suffering')
Andrew Criddle

JW:
In my opinion you have the following reasons to doubt Andrew's conclusion above that "The Jews" unilaterally changed their own Talmud here to hide a reference to a suffering Messiah:

1) In General we have many documented examples of Christianity intentionally Editing religious writings in the last two thousand years and in comparison relatively few Jewish examples. So my General advice, just like when betting on Women's Tennis always bet against the heterosexuals, is when betting on dishonest Editing, always bet against "The Jews".

2) Raymond Martini's Specific primary related purpose was the Immoral action of Editing the Talmud for supposed unflattering references to Jesus. In the absence of really good specific evidence that he was correct (which would be very difficult for such old writings) this observation by itself would make him the Likely candidate for being dishonest.

3) Yitzchak Baer, A History of Jews in Christian Spain, vol. I pp. 150-185, claims (successfully in my opinion) that Martini forged quotations (surprise), ch. 4 f. 54, 82.

4) Martini believed that 98b referred to Jesus. He is the one who would have found the description of "leper" here unflattering and he is the one whose job it was to Edit unflattering references. Hence he is the likely candidate for an Edit here.

5) I've already indicated that according to Rabbi Moshe Schulman:

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/doc/word.gif

the correct translation is:

Quote:
"The Messiah-what is his name?... The Rabbis say, `The leprous one by
the house of Rebbi is his name' as it is said, 'Surely he hath borne our
griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of
God, and afflicted.' [Isaiah 53:4].
Rabbi Schulman explains:
Quote:
So who is this leper scholar? In the Talmud Yerushalmi Chagigah
chapter 2 Halacha 1 (9a in my edition): The talmud there says that a
person is not allowed to teach 'the work of the chariot' (a mystical
subject) without permission of his teacher (who has taught him.)
Rebbi Chiya said in the name of Rebbi Yehuda, 'Rebbi had an
exceptional student, who taught one chapter in the work of the
chariot, and Rebbi was not satisfied with what he taught and he was
stricken with leperacy.' This student was called the 'leper scholar'
because of that, and he is the person referred to in Sanhedrin.
We can see from the related context of 98b that it's all about pun proof-texting out-of-context from Scripture to a known Rabbi:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedr...hedrin_98.html

Quote:
Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, is far.30 The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.31
So, for the verse in question to be consistent with the rest of the discussion, it needs "leper".

Also, the general discussion is all about the Son of David. In 107a:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedr...edrin_107.html

Quote:
Rab Judah said in Rab's name: Six months was David smitten with leprosy, the Shechinah deserted him, and the Sanhedrin held aloof from him. 'He was smitten with leprosy' — as it is written, Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.38 'The Shechinah deserted him' — as it is written, Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation,' and uphold me with thy free spirit.39 'And the Sanhedrin kept aloof from him' — as it is written, Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.40 How do we know that it was for six months? — Because it is written, And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years:
David is desribed as smitten with leprosy. Seems to be a theme. Maybe "The Jews" changed this too.

6) This type of pun proof-texting doesn't require exact matches as evidenced in 98b itself:

Quote:
The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.
So changing "ulya" to "ivra" would not be needed, especially since they can be used inter-changeably in compact Biblical Hebrew. Besides, "leper" or "afflicted" refer to suffering either way.

The implication from Andrew's conclusion is that "The Jews" changed it to "leper" so it couldn't refer to Jesus. The problem though is the Rabbi's understanding of 53:4 here is Figurative so it wouldn't really matter which word was used.

On an indirectly related note, The Rashi's (only the greatest Jewish Bible commentator of all time, of all time -with no Apologies to Muhammed Ali) Commentary of the Jewish Bible is now available online:

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

You may be interested in Rashi's Commentary on 53:4:

Quote:
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

Indeed, he bore our illnesses Heb. ×?ָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities.

JW:
Note that Rashi's commentary, based on the standard previous commentary and setting the standard for future Jewish Commentary, makes clear that in Literal, straight-forward analysis of the Clear meaning of the text, Israel is the Subject. Of special interest is The Rashi's confirmation of the Plural words used in 53:8 & 9 making it clear that the subject is Plural:

Quote:
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.
and his generation The years that passed over him.
who shall tell? The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.

9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

And he gave his grave to the wicked He subjected himself to be buried according to anything the wicked of the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) would decree upon him, for they would penalize him with death and the burial of donkeys in the intestines of the dogs.
to the wicked According to the will of the wicked, he was willing to be buried, and he would not deny the living God.
and to the wealthy with his kinds of death and to the will of the ruler he subjected himself to all kinds of death that he decreed upon him, because he did not wish to agree to (denial) [of the Torah] to commit evil and to rob like all the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) among whom he lived.
and there was no deceit in his mouth to accept idolatry (to accept a pagan deity as God [Parshandatha]).
As Andrew knows II Isaiah was more of a Naturalist anyway and generally doesn't make Messianic prophecies like I Isaiah does.

Perhaps more interesting than any of the above is that this thread was started by someone who asks an awful lot of questions for someone from New Jersey who appears to know at least as much based on their opening post on the subject as anyone here and has not yet been responded to by the one person here qualified to respond to the OP.

In my opinion Martinis should be shaking the Forum and not stirring (or Spinning) it.



Joseph

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Old 06-12-2005, 01:56 PM   #7
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One point of interest: Fishbane also mentions in the same chapter, "Midrashic Theologies of Messianic Suffering," that the reading "hulya" from b. Sanhedrin 98b is attested as well in a work by Abrabanel (15th c CE).

Regards,
Notsri
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:40 PM   #8
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Default They Were Just Following Religious Orders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notsri
One point of interest: Fishbane also mentions in the same chapter, "Midrashic Theologies of Messianic Suffering," that the reading "hulya" from b. Sanhedrin 98b is attested as well in a work by Abrabanel (15th c CE).
Regards,
Notsri

JW:
Well this is just fascinating new evidence. Thanks. Does Fishbane also mention that Abrabanel:

1) Was from Spain (like Martini), famous for Editing Jewish writings?

2) Lived at the height of the Inquisition?

3) Was famous for quoting Christians in his eX-uh-Jesus (I wonder why)?

If Abrabanel was trying to gain favor with the Spanish it probably wouldn't have been a good idea to appear to contradict their favorite son, would it?



Joseph
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Old 06-12-2005, 05:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWallack
JW:
Well this is just fascinating new evidence. Thanks. Does Fishbane also mention that Abrabanel:

1) Was from Spain (like Martini), famous for Editing Jewish writings?

2) Lived at the height of the Inquisition?

3) Was famous for quoting Christians in his eX-uh-Jesus (I wonder why)?

If Abrabanel was trying to gain favor with the Spanish it probably wouldn't have been a good idea to appear to contradict their favorite son, would it?



Joseph
Fishbane, unfortunately, does not address these concerns in the chapter. However, from the little I know of Abrabanel--and I'm afraid we've completely derailed the thread at this point--he didn't exactly sympathize with Christian messianology; which is to say I think it unlikely that he would've quoted a possibly-corrupt reading from the Talmud in the Pugio Fidei to confirm (directly or indirectly) the Christian's "favorite son." Two of his works are of special interest: (1) a commentary on Daniel, titled Sources of Salvation (Mayene HaYeshuah), and (2) an exposition of the Jewish doctrine of the Messiah, entitled The Salvation of His Anointed (Yeshuot Meshiho; a work referenced in the aforementioned chapter from Fishbane; the same work in which Abrabanel quotes the reading in question from b. Sanhedrin). From what I understand of the first of these, Abrabanel largely devotes himself to controverting Christian interpretations, particularly messianic interpretations, of the Book of Daniel. In the second he of course examines the Jewish approach to messianic texts, covering the entirety of the Hebrew Bible. And once again, he apparently makes frequent and pointed attacks on Christian exegesis on the relevant passages. So I don't get the impression that he was concerned with what the Christians thought of him. (Of course, all this doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility that Abrabanel was working with a corrupt text of the Talmud in the case of Sanhedrin 98b. IMO, though, Fishbane's emended text, following Martini and Abrabanel, makes much better sense, especially in the context of the talmudic discussion.)

Regards,
Notsri
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Old 06-13-2005, 06:55 AM   #10
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much thanks again, all.
Quote:
Perhaps more interesting than any of the above is that this thread was started by someone who asks an awful lot of questions for someone from New Jersey who appears to know at least as much based on their opening post on the subject as anyone here and has not yet been responded to by the one person here qualified to respond to the OP.
actually, i'm from OH. i am certainly glad that the info i already had wasn't that far off the mark. ironically (or not), i have one of my Xian friends to thank for making me do the legwork to "prove" that it was really about Jesus. the results were much to his dismay. if nothing else, the passage does seem to imply a disease of some kind and this would obviously remove any "perfect sacrificial lamb" status from whomever is being spoken of.
Quote:
In my opinion Martinis should be shaking the Forum and not stirring (or Spinning) it.
the shakes? yeah. coming off of a lost weekend will do that to me, though.

actually, shaking cocktails was never necessary unless they would fizz. that included Collins, and other drinks that used soda or tonic. stirring drinks -- martinis included -- did not affect the taste in any fashion.

thanks again,


mike

EDIT:
who is the "one person here qualified to respond"?
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