Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 03-01-2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Uncanny accuracy. We can see ALL THESE THINGS apply to today's world but NONE of it applied to Jesus' time.

Not bad for a "random non-existent dumb 1st century Jewish guy", huh?

It all gets down to what God is trying to accomplish. Why does God predict the future?

Consider the following from another thread that you started:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Is God able to provide additional evidence that would convince any more people to love him and and accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

How could he do that? It would become force, not belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Not according to the New Testament. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

John 2:23

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

John 3:2

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

John 10:37-38

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

John 11:43-48

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

John 20:30-31

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Acts 14:3

“Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”

1 Corinthians 15:6

“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.”

Are you going to claim that any of that evidence forced anyone to become a follower of Jesus?

It is up to Christians to explain why Jesus criticized Thomas for wanting tangible, firsthand evidence that he rose from the dead, but willingly provided tangible, firsthand evidence to lots of other people, and in one case (John 10:37-38) even told some stubborn people that if they would not believe his words to believe his miracles.

Are you going to tell us that any of that evidence forced anyone to become a followers of Jesus, when in fact texts indicate that many people who were not convinced by Jesus' words alone were convinced by his words AND his miracles? Words do not confirm miracles. Miracles confirm words. In the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." If Jesus had not performed any miracles, how many followers do you think he would have had?

Many Christians believe that Jesus predicted the destruction of the Jewish Temple, and virtually all fundamentalist Christians believe that Jesus predicted the future. If Jesus actually predicted the destruction of the Jewish Temple, if he had also predicted that it would be detroyed in 70 A.D., which happened, and that Titus would destroy it, which happened, surely more people would have become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. Further, as the texts show, many people believed that Jesus was the only begotten Son only after they saw him perform miracles. Such being the case, if Jesus accurately predicted some future events, that would simply have been additional evidence that he was the only begotten Son of God.

If a God exists, it is a given that he could easily convince everyone to believe that he can predict the future.

Nero's Boot · 03-01-2008, 07:40 AM

Rome never went to war, before Jeeeeeeeeeeeebus appeared? Hmmmm; guess Carthage just imploded by the will of BibleGod.

--never mind the Babylonians, the Akkadians, ancient Egypt, and Celtic Europe NB

Amaleq13 · 03-01-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEST2ASK

And are eagles carrion eaters?

Yes and that is nothing new. I'm still waiting for the "uncanny accuracy" to be explained.

Half-Life · 03-01-2008, 08:42 AM

Here are the verses and I will explain each one:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

David Koresh? All the other false prophets that came and went. Jesus' words still go strong.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Lots of wars in his name. Don't you guys know this?

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Gee, seems to be happening today doesn't it? Practically all nations are against one another.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

See? it must be done to fulfill the will.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Gee, how many people are HATED all over the world just because they believe in jesus? How many are mocked and tortured all over the world?

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Seems to be happening today, doesn't it?

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

See above point.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Yep, this is happening too.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Thank you Jesus.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Did the Gospel stay in one place? Nope, just like Jesus predicted it wouldn't be.

Gee, how did he know the Gospel would be preached? if no one preached it, Christianity would've been gone, and Jesus would've been a JOKE to everyone.

Dogfish · 03-01-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Here are the verses and I will explain each one:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

David Koresh? All the other false prophets that came and went. Jesus' words still go strong.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Lots of wars in his name. Don't you guys know this?

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Gee, seems to be happening today doesn't it? Practically all nations are against one another.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

See? it must be done to fulfill the will.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Gee, how many people are HATED all over the world just because they believe in jesus? How many are mocked and tortured all over the world?

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Seems to be happening today, doesn't it?

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

See above point.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Yep, this is happening too.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Thank you Jesus.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Did the Gospel stay in one place? Nope, just like Jesus predicted it wouldn't be.

Gee, how did he know the Gospel would be preached? if no one preached it, Christianity would've been gone, and Jesus would've been a JOKE to everyone.

And most of that also applies to the time before jesus. False prophets, wars, hate - couldn't be more vague if he tried. Why not anything specific? Why play games?

Nero's Boot · 03-01-2008, 08:50 AM

.....

.....wait, wait up a minute. Before Christ, no wars were ever waged in his "holy" name? Isn't Jesus, according to Trinity doctrine, just one of three primary aspects of BibleGod? Are you implying that pre-Rome Israel never went to war for the glory of YHWH?

--you can't seriously be saying that, can you???! NB

cgordon · 03-01-2008, 09:39 AM

Half Life, before you go starting yet another baseless new thread, how about catching up on the other baseless threads you've started:

Real proof that babies are born with body shame?
Real, extra-biblical proof that the apostles lived and died as you claim they did?
Etc, etc, etc.

Half-Life · 03-01-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nero's Boot

.....

.....wait, wait up a minute. Before Christ, no wars were ever waged in his "holy" name? Isn't Jesus, according to Trinity doctrine, just one of three primary aspects of BibleGod? Are you implying that pre-Rome Israel never went to war for the glory of YHWH?

--you can't seriously be saying that, can you???! NB

Show me just ONE war from before Jesus that actually fought a war in the NAME of JESUS.

Once again, you have been proven completely wrong.

Mohammad never said wars will be fought in HIS name.

Buddha never said that.

Khrishna never said that.

Only Jesus. Funny how that works out.

Joe Bloe · 03-01-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Uncanny accuracy. We can see ALL THESE THINGS apply to today's world but NONE of it applied to Jesus' time.

Have you ever read a history book? When in history have there not been wars and rumors of wars? Famines, diseases, and earthquakes? Prophets of one or another religion or denomination who were thought by folks of other religions or denominations to be false prophets who were deceiving many? Are you not aware that for the past two thousand years people have pointed to these verses saying they were predicting their own present time? Have you heard of the "Great Disappointment" of the Millerites? And many other groups in many other times and places?

juergen · 03-01-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Show me just ONE war from before Jesus that actually fought a war in the NAME of JESUS.

Once again, you have been proven completely wrong.

Mohammad never said wars will be fought in HIS name.

Buddha never said that.

Khrishna never said that.

Only Jesus. Funny how that works out.

Where exactly does it say that these wars will be fought in His name? A lot of people think Jesus means this, but the text never says he says it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Uncanny accuracy. We can see ALL THESE THINGS apply to today's world but NONE of it applied to Jesus' time.

You did explain how all these things apply to today's world. But in the end you didn't say how none of them applied to Jesus' time, which I thought was part of the main argument.

As far as something happening in a name of someone: It's pretty obvious that there wouldn't be anything said in someone's name, had this someone not already existed. How can anyone do something in Jesus' name, if Jesus is not famous, and still living, and yet to be known by others? I don't see what the big deal is about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Show me just ONE war from before Jesus that actually fought a war in the NAME of JESUS.

Is this something like:

"Show me the existence of one pizza from before I made that pizza, that hasn't been eaten by me at the time I started making the pizza."

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03-01-2008, 07:40 AM	#12
Nero's Boot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,234	Rome never went to war, before Jeeeeeeeeeeeebus appeared? Hmmmm; guess Carthage just imploded by the will of BibleGod. --never mind the Babylonians, the Akkadians, ancient Egypt, and Celtic Europe NB

03-01-2008, 08:42 AM	#14
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	Here are the verses and I will explain each one: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. David Koresh? All the other false prophets that came and went. Jesus' words still go strong. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Lots of wars in his name. Don't you guys know this? 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Gee, seems to be happening today doesn't it? Practically all nations are against one another. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. See? it must be done to fulfill the will. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Gee, how many people are HATED all over the world just because they believe in jesus? How many are mocked and tortured all over the world? 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Seems to be happening today, doesn't it? 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. See above point. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Yep, this is happening too. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Thank you Jesus. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Did the Gospel stay in one place? Nope, just like Jesus predicted it wouldn't be. Gee, how did he know the Gospel would be preached? if no one preached it, Christianity would've been gone, and Jesus would've been a JOKE to everyone.

03-01-2008, 08:50 AM	#16
Nero's Boot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,234	..... .....wait, wait up a minute. Before Christ, no wars were ever waged in his "holy" name? Isn't Jesus, according to Trinity doctrine, just one of three primary aspects of BibleGod? Are you implying that pre-Rome Israel never went to war for the glory of YHWH? --you can't seriously be saying that, can you???! NB

03-01-2008, 09:39 AM	#17
cgordon Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,402	Half Life, before you go starting yet another baseless new thread, how about catching up on the other baseless threads you've started: Real proof that babies are born with body shame? Real, extra-biblical proof that the apostles lived and died as you claim they did? Etc, etc, etc.

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