Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-14-2008, 12:41 AM

The LA Times had a review today of The Invention of Scotland: Myth and History (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Hugh Trevor-Roper (pubished five years after his death.)

The book seems pertinent to some discussions of historiography here. The thesis is that Scotland invented its history wholesale, complete with fake costumes (kilts were invented by an English mill owner, and the tartan was pure invention.)

From this review

Quote:

All nations have their myths, of course, but, in Trevor-Roper's vigorously expressed opinion, the Scots are in a class by themselves when it comes to creating a fictitious past. Nothing if not audacious, the medieval chroniclers found the original Scottish hero in the Greek prince, Gaedil Glas, who married a pharaoh's daughter named Scota. Fleeing from Jehovah's chastisement of the Egyptian persecutors of the children of Israel, they made their way to Spain, from where their descendants moved first to Ireland and then, in 333 BC, to Scotland.

This was not to be the last time that the Egyptian connection contributed to Scottish history. In the early 16th century, Hector Boece, the Aberdonian humanist, recorded proudly that in the second century BC, Ptolemy II had sent envoys to his Scottish kinsman, including in their baggage the works of Aristotle, which the cultured Caledonians hastened to read in the original Greek. Boece also filled in an awkward lacuna in his country's genealogy by the simple expedient of inventing 40 kings covering 22 generations, complete with detailed biographies for each. They were presented in a contrapuntal sequence of heroes and villains, the latter exemplified by the vile King Lugtachus, who mixed murder with incest, repeatedly raping his aunts, daughters and sisters before moving on to their various offspring.

gstafleu · 07-14-2008, 07:44 AM

Aha, NDI (Nationalism Based Inventiveness) at work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Boece also filled in an awkward lacuna in his country's genealogy by the simple expedient of inventing 40 kings covering 22 generations, complete with detailed biographies for each. They were presented in a contrapuntal sequence of heroes and villains, the latter exemplified by the vile King Lugtachus, who mixed murder with incest, repeatedly raping his aunts, daughters and sisters before moving on to their various offspring.

Sounds like they took a clue from the OT with its contrapuntal sequence of kings who did and did not walk in the way of the Lord. So maybe the Historical Scottish Kings are the Historical Jewish Kings, like David and Solomon, who apparently weren't much more than names, if that.

Gerard Stafleu

Huon · 07-14-2008, 07:53 AM

This story can be found here :
http://www.exclassics.com/ceitinn/forintro.htm
The History of Ireland by Geoffrey Keating
Foras Feasa ar Éireann le Seathrún Céitinn

A passage concerning Gaedheal Glas is here :
http://www.exclassics.com/ceitinn/for19.htm

Quote:

When Niul had married Scota, he established schools at Campus Circit for teaching the sciences and the various languages to the youths of Egypt. And it was there that Scota gave birth to Gaedheal son of Niul. Perhaps some one might wonder how Niul, the fifth in descent from Japhet, could be a contemporary of Moses, seeing that seven hundred and ninety-seven years elapsed between the Deluge and the assuming by Moses of the leadership of the children of Israel. My reply to that is that it is not incredible that Niul should live several hundred years; for people used to live a long time at that period; witness Eibear son of Saile the fourth in descent from Seim who lived four hundred and sixty-four years, and Seim who lived five hundred years after Arphaxad was born to him, as we read in the eleventh chapter of Genesis; that it is not to be doubted, therefore, that Niul might have lived from the forty-second year of the reign of Nion son of Beil, as we have said, to the time of Moses. And moreover, the length of life granted to Niul and that he should have survived till the time of Moses in Egypt is still less to be wondered at, if what Marianus Scotus states be true; for he says that it was three hundred and thirty-one years after the Deluge that the Confusion of Tongues took place at Babylon, while, according to what we have stated above, it was long after the Babylonian Confusion that Niul was born. From what we have said, we should trust the authors of the seanchus of the Scotic race as regards the age of Niul son of Feinius Farsaidh, and believe that he was a contemporary of Moses in Egypt.

This quote is completely in concordance with the OT, isn't it ?

thentian · 07-14-2008, 07:55 AM

Maybe they were envious that the scandinavians had the Sagas, so they invented someting, just like the Finnish Kalevala!

*Ducks in case there are suomilainen about.*

Huon · 07-14-2008, 08:04 AM

In 1945, Trevor-Roper was ordered by the British government to investigate the circumstances of Adolf Hitler's death and to rebut the claims of the Soviet government that Hitler was alive and living somewhere in the West. The ensuing investigation resulted in Trevor-Roper's most famous book, 1947's The Last Days of Hitler, in which he traced the last ten days of the Führer's life.

In April 1983, the German news magazine Stern published extracts from what purported to be the diaries of Adolf Hitler, known as the Hitler Diaries.

Trevor-Roper endorsed the diaries thus:

"I am now satisfied that the documents are authentic; that the history of their wanderings since 1945 is true; and that the standard accounts of Hitler's writing habits, of his personality and, even, perhaps, of some public events, may in consequence have to be revised."

However within two weeks the Hitler Diaries were revealed by Dr Julius Grant as being "grotesquely superficial fakes" made on modern paper using modern ink and full of historical inaccuracies. The diaries were actually written by Konrad Kujau, a notorious Stuttgart forger. Both he and Heidemann went to trial in 1985 and were each sentenced to 42 months in prison.

More details on wiki : Hugh Trevor-Roper, Hitler Diaries

Clivedurdle · 07-14-2008, 01:04 PM

Arguably the Scots are not the first, nor possibly the best story tellers - Judaism is definitely a front runner - Bible Unearthed.

And the greatest supporters of Israel by a huge margin are not Jews but fundie xians who see Israel as one of the signs of the end times - the myth of Armegeddon could still become true.

pete · 07-14-2008, 01:24 PM

All Scots know, that whatever happened ... it was the fault of the English.

cobardon · 07-14-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The LA Times had a review today of The Invention of Scotland: Myth and History (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Hugh Trevor-Roper (pubished five years after his death.)

The book seems pertinent to some discussions of historiography here. The thesis is that Scotland invented its history wholesale, complete with fake costumes (kilts were invented by an English mill owner, and the tartan was pure invention.)

Tartan itself wasn't a pure invention (plaid cloth has been found dating back almost 2000 years in Scotland), but the system of clan tartans was invented, as indeed was the modern sort of kilt. Add in Ossian (tales from a 'lost' Celtic bard invented by a chap called McPherson - an interesting lesson in how to concoct a historical tradition wholesale) and a sudden surge in popularity post the Napoleonic campaigns that Highland regiments did so well in, making them fashionable, led to a whole industry based on romantic notions of things that never were and shortbread, haggis and wee scottie dogs.

Trevor Roper's theory is not exactly new, and is fairly well accepted in Scottish historical works prior to this - it's pretty hard to argue with most of it. 99% of Scots buy into it all now, some 200 years from the start of the reinvention.

mens_sana · 07-14-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Arguably the Scots are not the first, nor possibly the best story tellers - Judaism is definitely a front runner - Bible Unearthed.

I know Finkelstein has a good, professional reputation — and I know that occasionally a scholar rides a hobby horse to fame (or infamy, e.g. Karsten Peter Theide), but can you tell me who the professional archaeologists, with Syro-Palestinian specialty, stand with Finkelstein on the gate-dating which led to his lower chronology?

mountainman · 07-15-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

In 1945, Trevor-Roper was ordered by the British government to investigate the circumstances of Adolf Hitler's death and to rebut the claims of the Soviet government that Hitler was alive and living somewhere in the West. The ensuing investigation resulted in Trevor-Roper's most famous book, 1947's The Last Days of Hitler, in which he traced the last ten days of the Führer's life.

In April 1983, the German news magazine Stern published extracts from what purported to be the diaries of Adolf Hitler, known as the Hitler Diaries.

Trevor-Roper endorsed the diaries thus:

"I am now satisfied that the documents are authentic; that the history of their wanderings since 1945 is true; and that the standard accounts of Hitler's writing habits, of his personality and, even, perhaps, of some public events, may in consequence have to be revised."

However within two weeks the Hitler Diaries were revealed by Dr Julius Grant as being "grotesquely superficial fakes" made on modern paper using modern ink and full of historical inaccuracies. The diaries were actually written by Konrad Kujau, a notorious Stuttgart forger. Both he and Heidemann went to trial in 1985 and were each sentenced to 42 months in prison.

More details on wiki : Hugh Trevor-Roper, Hitler Diaries

The obvious question is why does BC&H scholarship continue to follow the euphemistic implications of myth and not instead stand and face squarely the implications and ramifications and the very real non-nieve historical possibility that the new testament was published by a fourth century military supremacist with absolute power. It may thus perhaps be appropriately classified and categorised in the field of ancient literature as an instance of the fraudulent misrepresentation of ancient history by another supreme imperial thug.

What is the Historia Augusta and why is it considered fraud? What is the great similarity between the ecclesiasical history of Eusebius and the history of the augustas both known to have been written at roughly the same time in the fourth century?

Best wishes,

Pete

07-14-2008, 08:04 AM	#5
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Hugh Trevor-Roper and the Hitler Diaries In 1945, Trevor-Roper was ordered by the British government to investigate the circumstances of Adolf Hitler's death and to rebut the claims of the Soviet government that Hitler was alive and living somewhere in the West. The ensuing investigation resulted in Trevor-Roper's most famous book, 1947's The Last Days of Hitler, in which he traced the last ten days of the Führer's life. In April 1983, the German news magazine Stern published extracts from what purported to be the diaries of Adolf Hitler, known as the Hitler Diaries. Trevor-Roper endorsed the diaries thus: "I am now satisfied that the documents are authentic; that the history of their wanderings since 1945 is true; and that the standard accounts of Hitler's writing habits, of his personality and, even, perhaps, of some public events, may in consequence have to be revised." However within two weeks the Hitler Diaries were revealed by Dr Julius Grant as being "grotesquely superficial fakes" made on modern paper using modern ink and full of historical inaccuracies. The diaries were actually written by Konrad Kujau, a notorious Stuttgart forger. Both he and Heidemann went to trial in 1985 and were each sentenced to 42 months in prison. More details on wiki : Hugh Trevor-Roper, Hitler Diaries

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07-14-2008, 07:55 AM	#4
thentian Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 694	Maybe they were envious that the scandinavians had the Sagas, so they invented someting, just like the Finnish Kalevala! Ducks in case there are suomilainen about.

07-14-2008, 01:04 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Arguably the Scots are not the first, nor possibly the best story tellers - Judaism is definitely a front runner - Bible Unearthed. And the greatest supporters of Israel by a huge margin are not Jews but fundie xians who see Israel as one of the signs of the end times - the myth of Armegeddon could still become true.

07-14-2008, 01:24 PM	#7
pete Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nomadic... Posts: 887	All Scots know, that whatever happened ... it was the fault of the English.

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