Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pob14 · 02-07-2007, 07:32 AM

Elijah and Diogenes, I think you are talking past each other.

Neither of you, so far as I can see, has defined "martyr", and I think it is clear you are using two different definitions. I have a better guess at Diogenes's definition, but I don't know at all what Elijah's is. So from the outside, and using the "apples/oranges" example again, we are hearing:

Elijah: Obviously this apple is a frazzbot. Anyone can see that. And clearly, this orange isn't. In fact, there are no other frazzbots.
Diogenes: No, just look, they're both frazzbots, and so are lots of other things.

Now, if to Elijah "frazzbot" means "red fruit that grows on trees and was planted throughout the Northwest Territories by John Chapman," he's right. And if by "frazzbot" Diogenes means "kind of round thing that's good to eat," he's right too. But no discussion is going to be facilitated until we find out what you each mean by "frazzbot" -- oops, I mean "martyr."

Elijah, I'm particularly interested in what your definition is, and how it can include Jesus and exclude everybody else (and still mean something other than "Jesus.")

Malachi151 · 02-07-2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by driver8

I want to direct your attention to this post http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php...6&postcount=22 I made earlier that was not responded to. In essence, it asks:

I put very little credence in the accuracy of the gospel sayings, but the whole point of the NT hinges on this very thing. The Christian movement is based on the opportunity to join the body of Christ, to be part of a community of man separate from one's village or tribe, to gain redemption and hence immortality through his sacrifice. The whole point of this godman is to come to earth to make this sacrifice. There are uncountable statements attributed to Christ in his ministry that he knows this, and that he knows how it will happen. This knowledge cannot be denied without striking at the heart of the story.

So, how does one reconcile what should be the most reliable quote of his whole life, i.e. his last words? How could his last words be misquoted? How does Jesus on the cross suddenly become both human and ignorant of his purpose on earth? Answer this before you wander off onto so-called copy-cat martyrs, because they are of no significance if the "original martyr" is a fraud.

Perhaps this convoluted ministry is true or this crucifixion is true but certainly they both cannot be. The gospel writers REALLY screwed this one up. As Ricky Riccardo would say, "Lucy, you got a lot of 'splaining to do."

But "his last words" are nothing more than a quote from scripture:

Quote:

Isaiah 50:
6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

Amos 2:
11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Psalm 22:
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
...
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
...
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Psalm 69:
Insults have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Amos 8:
8 "Will not the land tremble for this, and all who live in it mourn? ... 9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Ezekiel 37:
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

Quote:

Matthew 27:

30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44 In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

45 From the sixth hour* until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah.

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

* The sixth hour is noon

Hence the fiction....

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-07-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pob14

Elijah and Diogenes, I think you are talking past each other.

Neither of you, so far as I can see, has defined "martyr", and I think it is clear you are using two different definitions. I have a better guess at Diogenes's definition, but I don't know at all what Elijah's is. So from the outside, and using the "apples/oranges" example again, we are hearing:

Elijah: Obviously this apple is a frazzbot. Anyone can see that. And clearly, this orange isn't. In fact, there are no other frazzbots.
Diogenes: No, just look, they're both frazzbots, and so are lots of other things.

Now, if to Elijah "frazzbot" means "red fruit that grows on trees and was planted throughout the Northwest Territories by John Chapman," he's right. And if by "frazzbot" Diogenes means "kind of round thing that's good to eat," he's right too. But no discussion is going to be facilitated until we find out what you each mean by "frazzbot" -- oops, I mean "martyr."

Elijah, I'm particularly interested in what your definition is, and how it can include Jesus and exclude everybody else (and still mean something other than "Jesus.")

These are the results of a google definition search:

Quote:

Definitions of martyr on the Web:

* one who suffers for the sake of principle
* kill as a martyr; "Saint Sebastian was martyred"
* one who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion
* torture and torment like a martyr
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Historically, a martyr is a person who dies for his or her religious faith. Sometimes, it is for a different "noble cause" - like patriotically dying for a nation's glory in a war.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr

* Martyr is a Canadian death metal band.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_(band)

* member of the Christian church who suffered death for their faith; martyrs ranked before all other saints
medievalwriting.50megs.com/churchglossary/glossaryi.htm

* One who moves towards death along the line of least reluctance. [Ambrose Bierce]
www.wordskit.com/words/word-m.shtml

* Someone who chooses death rather than to renounce his faith.
www.ichrusa.com/saintsalive/glossary.htm

* self-sacrifice and fanatical belief in a singular cause
www.greyearth.com/

* A martyr is someone who has died for what he or she believes. The first Christian martyr was Stephen.
www.fitzwimarc.org.uk/glossary/m.htm

Maybe Elijah thinks Jesus was a Canadian death metal band.

Elijah · 02-07-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by driver8

That's what Mark says at least.

If his supposed death was both predicted and willing, why are his last words:

That's a real puzzler. The godman sounds totally clueless about his whole mission on earth, you know salvation of humanity and all. Forsaken? Its all part of the divine plan, surely the godman has better short-term memory than this. The story tellers had a real brain cramp with this one. I think they got stuck with cross-purposes here as they developed the story lines and forgot to come back and edit this blooper out. Famous last words?

Jesus on the cross looks like a pretty God forsaken fellow to me. I’m not a genie god worshiper so the conversation you want to have isn’t’ here.

Elijah · 02-07-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pob14

Elijah and Diogenes, I think you are talking past each other.

Neither of you, so far as I can see, has defined "martyr", and I think it is clear you are using two different definitions. I have a better guess at Diogenes's definition, but I don't know at all what Elijah's is. So from the outside, and using the "apples/oranges" example again, we are hearing:

Elijah: Obviously this apple is a frazzbot. Anyone can see that. And clearly, this orange isn't. In fact, there are no other frazzbots.
Diogenes: No, just look, they're both frazzbots, and so are lots of other things.

Now, if to Elijah "frazzbot" means "red fruit that grows on trees and was planted throughout the Northwest Territories by John Chapman," he's right. And if by "frazzbot" Diogenes means "kind of round thing that's good to eat," he's right too. But no discussion is going to be facilitated until we find out what you each mean by "frazzbot" -- oops, I mean "martyr."

Elijah, I'm particularly interested in what your definition is, and how it can include Jesus and exclude everybody else (and still mean something other than "Jesus.")

I don’t have a definition, I have an example. It’s not my place to define things. You can call everyone you want on the planet a Martyr but you should be able to see the differences between them. It’s just words… just labels.

You or Cynic can use martyr how ever you want for who ever, but you should be able to see that what Jesus did was different from Socrates.

And as I’ve said several times now in this post, what separates Jesus from the rest of the pack is his own willingness to go to his death like he did. There is no way you can read the story of Socrates and see a man willing his own death. Completely different acts. Now how you label them is up to you, but just recognize they’re different.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-07-2007, 09:54 AM

Have you read Plato's account of the death of Socrates? I don't know how you can find anything about Socrates' words or actions that show any unwillingness or fear of death.

And you also haven't produced any evidence that Jesus was willing, nor have you offered any reason as to why his alleged willingnes would make him unique.

Elijah · 02-07-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Have you read Plato's account of the death of Socrates? I don't know how you can find anything about Socrates' words or actions that show any unwillingness or fear of death.

Yes, I'm a fan of Plato. That guy was one smart cookie. Socrates or how the story is told is of an old idiot who thought he was the smartest dude ever but didn’t even know how to treat others.

Quote:

And you also haven't produced any evidence that Jesus was willing, nor have you offered any reason as to why his alleged willingnes would make him unique.

Gregg helped me out here... if you're unwilling to look at scripture for evidence then there is nothing I can do to help you out in this regard.

Your job was to make him look un-unique. We already discussed this and I'm sure you googled till you couldn't google anymore to find a better martyr then Socrates with no luck. Finding earlier virgin births and resurrection stories is easy but how Jesus went to his death was unique.

driver8 · 02-07-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

But "his last words" are nothing more than a quote from scripture:

Hence the fiction....

I'm on to that. What "quotes" of Jesus come from anywhere else, so what else are we to critique? The point is that there's a major logic flaw in the scripture story line, and if any moment in Jesus' supposed life were witnessed and accurately attested to, it would be THIS moment, the final drama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Jesus on the cross looks like a pretty God forsaken fellow to me.

A MAN on a cross would certainly look god forsaken. The son of god, himself a god, sent to earth to die on the cross to save man is carrying out the plan of god. How is THAT god forsaken? That's the culmination of a successful plan. That's the whole purpose of the NT and the central message of Christianity, "Jesus died for your sins." Besides, Jesus "knows" he will rise again in three days, so why the worry?

The gospel stories of Jesus' ministry cast him as divine because he must be in order to be of any significance. The scene on the cross is intended to create a martyr and illicit pity, emotion and drama. That must be why the last words quote is cast in such an emotional manner. If he were truly the son of god he would just have said goodbye, I've accomplished my mission on earth, but that would not have been as emotionally powerful. The ending was chosen for drama, but it contradicts the rest of the story line. That is to me significant evidence from within the scripture that there is fabrication, because it goes to the very heart of the whole story.

So tell me again, why does Jesus think he's been forsaken?

I would say you have two choices:

1) The quote is accurate, he's only a man, and the gospels of his divine ministry are fabricated: or

2) The quote itself is fabricated, make what you will of the rest of the story.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-07-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Gregg helped me out here... if you're unwilling to look at scripture for evidence then there is nothing I can do to help you out in this regard.

It's not a question of what I'm "willing," to do, it's a question of you not being able to recognize what does and does not meet the criteria for what is acceptable as historical evidence. Personal opinion doesn't play into it.

Quote:

Your job was to make him look un-unique.

my "job?" No, my QUESTION was what makes the death of Jesus unique? You haven't been able to answer it.

Quote:

We already discussed this and I'm sure you googled till you couldn't google anymore to find a better martyr then Socrates with no luck.

Actually, I didn't search at all. Socrates was the first example that popped into my head and (despite your inability to recognize it) it's been a sufficiently effective rebuttal that I haven't felt the need to search for anything more. Even if I wanted to find more examples, I wouldn't need google.

Quote:

Finding earlier virgin births and resurrection stories is easy but how Jesus went to his death was unique.

You keep saying that, but you can't explain how.

Elijah · 02-07-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by driver8

I would say you have two choices:

1) The quote is accurate, he's only a man, and the gospels of his divine ministry are fabricated: or

2) The quote itself is fabricated, make what you will of the rest of the story.

1) I told you I don’t care for that Genie God stuff. That’s just one interpretation of what was going on up there and while popular it’s not mine.

I believe Jesus was a man. No genie in a flesh suit. That’s an older story.

2) I have no idea about the quote. It could be dead on or added in at a later date doesn’t really matter, it doesn’t change the story. Dude probably said a few things up there, I don’t know. I would have been like “HELP! GET ME OFF THIS THING!”

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02-07-2007, 07:32 AM	#71
pob14 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 543	Elijah and Diogenes, I think you are talking past each other. Neither of you, so far as I can see, has defined "martyr", and I think it is clear you are using two different definitions. I have a better guess at Diogenes's definition, but I don't know at all what Elijah's is. So from the outside, and using the "apples/oranges" example again, we are hearing: Elijah: Obviously this apple is a frazzbot. Anyone can see that. And clearly, this orange isn't. In fact, there are no other frazzbots. Diogenes: No, just look, they're both frazzbots, and so are lots of other things. Now, if to Elijah "frazzbot" means "red fruit that grows on trees and was planted throughout the Northwest Territories by John Chapman," he's right. And if by "frazzbot" Diogenes means "kind of round thing that's good to eat," he's right too. But no discussion is going to be facilitated until we find out what you each mean by "frazzbot" -- oops, I mean "martyr." Elijah, I'm particularly interested in what your definition is, and how it can include Jesus and exclude everybody else (and still mean something other than "Jesus.")

02-07-2007, 09:54 AM	#76
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Have you read Plato's account of the death of Socrates? I don't know how you can find anything about Socrates' words or actions that show any unwillingness or fear of death. And you also haven't produced any evidence that Jesus was willing, nor have you offered any reason as to why his alleged willingnes would make him unique.

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