Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 10-31-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Likely != did.

I prefer a more reasonable standard.

What language do you think Jesus spoke in conversation?

matthewthomas · 10-31-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythra

I listened (online) to Bart Ehrman's talk - I believe it was at Stanford.

He makes a claim that I haven't heard before. Ehrman says that the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus could not have taken place in the manner in which it's recorded in GJohn.

The double entendre "born from above" and "born a second time" exists for the same word in Greek - but in Aramaic it does not. Nicodemus could not have confused the meaning of what Jesus was saying, had it been spoken in Aramaic.

Therefore, this passage is inauthentic.

I thought this may be a good place to find out the arguments pro or con, since so many here having a nice working knowledge of the Greek language.

Inauthentic as a saying of/story about Jesus, but not necessarily inauthentic to the original GJohn.

mens_sana · 10-31-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewthomas

Inauthentic as a saying of/story about Jesus, but not necessarily inauthentic to the original GJohn.

I don't think anyone has argued that it is not authentic to GJohn. The question is whether Jesus said it. If Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, he did not say it, because the misunderstanding is impossible in Aramaic. If he was speaking in Greek, we have a nice pun that makes its point. The likelihood that he was speaking to an Aramaic-speaking audience in Greek — isn't good.

OneInFundieville · 10-31-2007, 04:50 PM

I recently heard a Messianic Jew describe the six ways one could have been been "born again" / "born from above" from what he described as a Jewish point of view of the times.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/L...BornAgain.html

Quote:

1st when a G-D fearer / proselyte become a convert.
2nd when a person was proclaimed King of Israel.
3rd when a boy became a man (Bar Mitzvah).
4th when he got married.
5th when he became a rabbi.
6th when he became a Rosh HaYeshiva (Rabbinical College)

How does this explanation relate to Ehrman's noted double entendre?

Clouseau · 10-31-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythra

I listened (online) to Bart Ehrman's talk - I believe it was at Stanford.

He makes a claim that I haven't heard before. Ehrman says that the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus could not have taken place in the manner in which it's recorded in GJohn.

The double entendre "born from above" and "born a second time" exists for the same word in Greek - but in Aramaic it does not. Nicodemus could not have confused the meaning of what Jesus was saying, had it been spoken in Aramaic.

Maybe they spoke in Greek.

Mythra · 10-31-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Maybe they spoke in Greek.

So, do you know of any legitimate NT scholars who have ever suggested that Jesus spoke greek?

ksen · 10-31-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Likely != did.

I prefer a more reasonable standard.

What language do you think Jesus spoke in conversation?

Since he was brought up in Egypt I assume he was fluent in Greek.

mens_sana · 10-31-2007, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneInFundieville

I recently heard a Messianic Jew describe the six ways one could have been been "born again" / "born from above" from what he described as a Jewish point of view of the times.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/L...BornAgain.html

Quote:

1st when a G-D fearer / proselyte become a convert.
2nd when a person was proclaimed King of Israel.
3rd when a boy became a man (Bar Mitzvah).
4th when he got married.
5th when he became a rabbi.
6th when he became a Rosh HaYeshiva (Rabbinical College)

How does this explanation relate to Ehrman's noted double entendre?

In Greek, it is still a double entendre. Your Messianic Jew is explaining how various Aramaic meanings could apply, but he is NOT explaining how a Greek pun came about and in Greek, it is a pun!

mens_sana · 10-31-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I prefer a more reasonable standard.

What language do you think Jesus spoke in conversation?

Since he was brought up in Egypt I assume he was fluent in Greek.

Why would you think that? And secondarily, why do you think he was brought up in Egypt? Do you have a text citation?

Magdlyn · 10-31-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens_sana

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Since he was brought up in Egypt I assume he was fluent in Greek.

Why would you think that?

There was a city (still is) in Egypt called Alexandria. Named after Alexander the Great? Who spread the Greek culture all over the Mediterranean region? Are you suggesting there were no Greek speakers in Egypt?

Quote:

And secondarily, why do you think he was brought up in Egypt? Do you have a text citation?

Famously, Jesus, Mary and Joseph ran to Egypt to escape Herod's mass murdering of the first borns. Matt 2:13-15.

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