Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-19-2013, 04:59 PM

As Maximus of Tyre aptly states, "historical narratives delight the uninitiated with the pleasures they offer, but also offer the initiate a most attractive reminder of what he already knows" (Or. 22.5) Translation from M. B. Trapp, ed. and trans., Maximus of Tyre: The Philosophical Orations (New York: Oxford University Press, 1997). While Maximus clarifies:

Quote:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from the great Athenian History? . . . For if historians, distinguishing things worthy from such as are base, concealed some and related others, the foul would be benefited by the imitation of historical transactions in the fame manner as the ' eye by the imitation of painting. |T]he greater part of history is taken up with greedy tyrants and unjust wars and undeserved successes and wicked deeds and cruel disasters and tragic situations. Such things are dangerous to imitate and harmful to remember" (22.6)

one can imagine that he opens the door to the composition of a 'mystical' historical narrative which serves to initiate the uninitiated into virtue. In a manner which bears an uncanny resemblance to Methodius's Symposium Maximus continues:

Quote:

Of all these the imitation is insecure, the memory dangerous, and the misery immortal. I indeed desire, in order to be fully feasted, the nutriment of salubrious discourses, and require such sane food as procured health to Socrates and Plato, to Xenophon and Aeschines ... Tell me of a physician, tell me of a commander for the soul ; and if you are dubious with respect to men enquire among the gods. Enquire, but not concerning land which is plundered, nor sea which is infested with pirates, nor walls which are besieged, nor bodies which are corrupted : these are trifling, these are diurnal ... Let, however, Homer, or Hesiod, or some other divine poet, sing for me the god who can heal the maladies of the soul. These things are worthy of Apollo, these are worthy of Jupiter.

This is the correct context for the creation of the gospel and specifically a mystical gospel of Mark.

andrewcriddle · 05-20-2013, 11:12 AM

In context Maximus seems to be advocating philosophic discourse, with its ability to purify and heal the soul, instead of exciting and fascinating historical narratives, which are not really what the soul ultimately needs.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 05-20-2013, 11:59 AM

True but by that logic it begs the question - would Maximus have felt venerating an embellished or wholly fantastic pseudo-historical narrative would be justified owing to its explifying "virtue" in some manner? Or in the language of the mob here - would "mythicism" be justified by its teaching virtue? I think it does.

andrewcriddle · 05-22-2013, 12:16 PM

There are IMO better parallels in Proclus. e.g. Proclus' interpretation of the criticism of the lurid passages in Homer by Socrates in Plato's Republic.

Quote:

Socrates therefore is very far from despising this kind of fable, according to the opinion of the multitude; for he evinces that the hearing of them is coordinated with the most holy initiations, and the most subtle mysteries. For to assert that such fables ought to be used in secret with a sacrifice the greatest and most perfect, manifests that the contemplation of them is mystic, and that they elevate the souls of the hearers to sublime speculations.

(translated by Thomas Taylor in volume one of his version of the works of Plato)
But this is late Neoplatonic not Middle Platonic.

Andrew Criddle

ficino · 05-23-2013, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

As Maximus of Tyre aptly states, "historical narratives delight the uninitiated with the pleasures they offer, but also offer the initiate a most attractive reminder of what he already knows" (Or. 22.5) Translation from M. B. Trapp, ed. and trans., Maximus of Tyre: The Philosophical Orations (New York: Oxford University Press, 1997). While Maximus clarifies:

Quote:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from the great Athenian History? . . . For if historians, distinguishing things worthy from such as are base, concealed some and related others, the foul would be benefited by the imitation of historical transactions in the fame manner as the ' eye by the imitation of painting. |T]he greater part of history is taken up with greedy tyrants and unjust wars and undeserved successes and wicked deeds and cruel disasters and tragic situations. Such things are dangerous to imitate and harmful to remember" (22.6)

one can imagine that he opens the door to the composition of a 'mystical' historical narrative which serves to initiate the uninitiated into virtue. In a manner which bears an uncanny resemblance to Methodius's Symposium Maximus continues:

Quote:

Of all these the imitation is insecure, the memory dangerous, and the misery immortal. I indeed desire, in order to be fully feasted, the nutriment of salubrious discourses, and require such sane food as procured health to Socrates and Plato, to Xenophon and Aeschines ... Tell me of a physician, tell me of a commander for the soul ; and if you are dubious with respect to men enquire among the gods. Enquire, but not concerning land which is plundered, nor sea which is infested with pirates, nor walls which are besieged, nor bodies which are corrupted : these are trifling, these are diurnal ... Let, however, Homer, or Hesiod, or some other divine poet, sing for me the god who can heal the maladies of the soul. These things are worthy of Apollo, these are worthy of Jupiter.

This is the correct context for the creation of the gospel and specifically a mystical gospel of Mark.

Hi, Stephan, not sure what you're proposing. Can you clarify the import of your phrases, "opens the door to" and "correct context for the creation of"? I'm also not clear on what you're getting at by "mystical." Maximus is into discourse about the mythical, and he is fine with allegory, but I don't see mysticism. Virtue is usually a condition for mystical enlightenment but not identical to it, no?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-20-2013, 11:12 AM	#2
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	In context Maximus seems to be advocating philosophic discourse, with its ability to purify and heal the soul, instead of exciting and fascinating historical narratives, which are not really what the soul ultimately needs. Andrew Criddle

05-20-2013, 11:59 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	True but by that logic it begs the question - would Maximus have felt venerating an embellished or wholly fantastic pseudo-historical narrative would be justified owing to its explifying "virtue" in some manner? Or in the language of the mob here - would "mythicism" be justified by its teaching virtue? I think it does.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.