Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 04-28-2006, 11:33 AM

What is a good introduction to what people got up to in the olden days, not just in terms of texts, but artefacts, anything, and did they think of themselves as being fraudulent if it was for the glory of god? What was faked, changed?

We have a huge market in holy relics, bits of the cross etc

Toto · 04-28-2006, 12:58 PM

That's a big subject.

Vorkosigan recommends this book in another thread:

Lies and Fiction in the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk)

but look around for a used copy - I think the Amazon prices are some sort of typo.

mens_sana · 04-28-2006, 05:32 PM

From a slightly different perspective:

"Literary Forgeries and Canonical Pseudepigrapha" by Bruce M. Metzger, Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (1972), pp. 3-24.

Bart D. Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings (2nd ed.), Oxford University Press, 2000, Chapter 23 "In the Wake of the Apostle: The Deutero-Pauline and Pastoral Epistles," pp. 341-362.

If you request the JBL through InterLibrary Loan, you will most likely receive a Xerox of the article from the lending library.

Vorkosigan · 04-29-2006, 01:38 AM

The book I recommended won't address the OP's need. It is about truth, lies, and fiction in Ancient hellenism.

Thomas II · 04-29-2006, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What is a good introduction to what people got up to in the olden days, not just in terms of texts, but artefacts, anything, and did they think of themselves as being fraudulent if it was for the glory of god? What was faked, changed?

We have a huge market in holy relics, bits of the cross etc

Consider this: When one starts from the premise that Jesus is GOD, son of GOD, son of a virgin, said to have been conceived without a father, who resurrected after being crucified and ascended to the heavens above,etc,
etc,etc...what else is NOT FAKED and FRAUDULENT? :huh:

Clivedurdle · 04-29-2006, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Consider this: When one starts from the premise that Jesus is GOD, son of GOD, son of a virgin, said to have been conceived without a father, who resurrected after being crucified and ascended to the heavens above,etc,
etc,etc...what else is NOT FAKED and FRAUDULENT? :huh:

But all these xians seem such nice honest folk!

mountainman · 05-01-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What is a good introduction to what people got up to in the olden days, not just in terms of texts, but artefacts, anything, and did they think of themselves as being fraudulent if it was for the glory of god? What was faked, changed? We have a huge market in holy relics, bits of the cross etc

The word "calumny" or its derivatives, such as "calumniated",
combined with a google search could be another avenue in
identifying alternate forms of fraudulent literature.

Pete Brown
http://www.mountainman.com.au/namaste_2006.htm
NAMASTE: “The spirit in me honours the spirit in you”

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2006, 03:29 AM

Are we not discussing on BCH a religion that claims its god is the creator of the universe, that this god's son has died and risen again to give us all eternal life?

These are outrageous claims!

We have clear evidence of "pious fraud" that the propogators of these beliefs thought their good news was so important that a bit of dissimulation would not go amiss. We have a huge industry of relics, of miracles, of snake oil salespersons.!

It is possible Eusebius made huge chunks of it up!

Why is there a basic assumption that any of this is trustworthy? Does not a proper critical approach require a starting assumption of pious fraud, of dissimulation, of economy with the truth? Maybe even early artefacts, graveyards, statues, have been tampered with?

Maybe like Jesus turning over the traders' stalls in the temple grounds, we need to do the same with this whole area of biblical studies and theology!

What exactly is the morality of those who continue to give the benefit of the doubt to ---- fantasy?

Does not Biblical Studies have to start with a clear presentation that this whole area is a game of Chinese Whispers, with later authors and editors continually improving stuff because of their beliefs that the see things a little bit clearer! Why is it not treated as the spin it is?

04-28-2006, 11:33 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Forgery and fraud in the ancient world What is a good introduction to what people got up to in the olden days, not just in terms of texts, but artefacts, anything, and did they think of themselves as being fraudulent if it was for the glory of god? What was faked, changed? We have a huge market in holy relics, bits of the cross etc

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04-28-2006, 12:58 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	That's a big subject. Vorkosigan recommends this book in another thread: Lies and Fiction in the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) but look around for a used copy - I think the Amazon prices are some sort of typo.

04-28-2006, 05:32 PM	#3
mens_sana Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: 1/2 mile west of the Rio sin Grande Posts: 397	From a slightly different perspective: "Literary Forgeries and Canonical Pseudepigrapha" by Bruce M. Metzger, Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (1972), pp. 3-24. Bart D. Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings (2nd ed.), Oxford University Press, 2000, Chapter 23 "In the Wake of the Apostle: The Deutero-Pauline and Pastoral Epistles," pp. 341-362. If you request the JBL through InterLibrary Loan, you will most likely receive a Xerox of the article from the lending library.

04-29-2006, 01:38 AM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The book I recommended won't address the OP's need. It is about truth, lies, and fiction in Ancient hellenism.

05-02-2006, 03:29 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Are we not discussing on BCH a religion that claims its god is the creator of the universe, that this god's son has died and risen again to give us all eternal life? These are outrageous claims! We have clear evidence of "pious fraud" that the propogators of these beliefs thought their good news was so important that a bit of dissimulation would not go amiss. We have a huge industry of relics, of miracles, of snake oil salespersons.! It is possible Eusebius made huge chunks of it up! Why is there a basic assumption that any of this is trustworthy? Does not a proper critical approach require a starting assumption of pious fraud, of dissimulation, of economy with the truth? Maybe even early artefacts, graveyards, statues, have been tampered with? Maybe like Jesus turning over the traders' stalls in the temple grounds, we need to do the same with this whole area of biblical studies and theology! What exactly is the morality of those who continue to give the benefit of the doubt to ---- fantasy? Does not Biblical Studies have to start with a clear presentation that this whole area is a game of Chinese Whispers, with later authors and editors continually improving stuff because of their beliefs that the see things a little bit clearer! Why is it not treated as the spin it is?

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