rhutchin

If a society determined that it wanted to demonstrate to people what it would be like to stand before God and be judged, it would establish laws consistent with God’s laws and enact judgments similar to that which God will do. Such a society should establish the death penalty for the same crimes that God does.

So parents being abused by a son should just grin and bear it. Somehow, I don’t think you are capturing all that Jesus said or meant. Maybe you have extracted the above verse from its context in order to make it say what you want.

seebs

Except that the society will inevitably do so poorly, and in the end will do nothing more than usurping God's role. Dominion "theology" is blasphemy, pure and simple. In the end, rather than echoing God, it places man in God's place and blames God for man's errors.

The reason Jesus talked about leaving things up to Caesar is simple; the teachings of Jesus are incompatible with the lust for worldly power. A man cannot serve both masters; to have the worldly power to enforce such laws, you must turn from Jesus.

The question of what a Christian government should do is a ludicrous one. We might as well ask which tortures a Christian torturer should prefer.

No, I just don't think "kill him" is the best response.

I know it may come as a shock, but many Christians believe that there have been significant events since Moses set his pen down. Some would argue that these events might even have significance to us.

In any event, if I can't easily resolve the commands of Jesus and Moses, I'll follow Jesus. Seems like an easy choice to me.

seebs

(looking at this, I notice that we have wandered far afield. I would suggest that a chunk of the meta-debate starting with Gamera and rhutchin a few pages back would probably fit better in GRD or MF&P.)

Johnny Skeptic

From Vivo's first post:

Well-said. Regarding homosexuality, it is interesting to note that there is not any credible evidence at all that the Bible writers spoke for God and not for themselves. In addition, there is not any credible evidence that the originals contained any comments at all about homosexuality. Further, the God of the Bible has committed many atrocities against mankind that are much worse than anything that homosexuals do.

If the God of the Bible exists, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent. My word, even Attila the Hun did not kill some of his most devout and faithful followers like the God of the Bible frequently does.

Biblical inerrancy is a provable fraud.

rhutchin

All of this may be true (at least from your perspective). However, it is not proof that the Bible writers did not speak for God nor can a person conclude (because he does not like that which he reads in the Bible) that he will not stand before God after death and be denied entry into heaven if he has committed sexual immorality (homosexuality, adultery, fornication, whatever).

Biblical inerrancy may be a provable fraud (particularly with respect to the issue of homosexuality) but so far, it has not been proven to be such.

rhutchin

Yep. People have a way of screwing things up. The lust for worldly power leads many to embrace religion as a means to gain that power (Iraq and Iran are good examples of this). However, any society needs to govern itself. The issue here seems to be the laws that a government should enforce. If the purpose of the government was to prepare people to stand before God, then I think it ought to appropriate God’s laws as its own.

OK. But it could be. Alternatives have costs and do not guarantee a positive return on the investment.

I agree. However, Jesus said that He did not come to do away with the law. It seems that Jesus meant for people to be governed by the laws of Moses. If a person were to follow Jesus perfectly, I suspect that person would never violate one of the laws of Moses. In context with this thread, that person would never participate in sexual immorality (which would include homosexuality).

rhutchin

If a society determines that it wants to be governed by God's laws, then working on the Sabbath should be punishable by death even as homsexuality would. However, if society elects not to do this, a person will still stand before God and these actions will be sufficient by themselves to keep a person from entering heaven.

rhutchin

I guess you jumped into this thread and did not grasp the context of the discussion.

Within that context of discussions in this thread, "sleeping with a woman/girl" woud be an idiomatic expression for having sex with that person. That is what made the punishment so severe. Your misunderstanding of context led you to make an innocent statement in your mind that became explosive when interpreted in the context of this discussion.

Johnny Skeptic

But I did not mention proof. I said "there is not any credible evidence at all that the Bible writers spoke for God and not for themselves." If you have credible evidence that they did, then please present it.

A reasonable case can be made that the God does not exist. If God does not exist, it is to be expected that tangible benefits would be frequently DISTRIBUTED to those who ARE NOT in greatest need, and frequently WITHHELD from those who ARE in greatest need. That is exactly the case that we have today. If you are trying to reasonably prove to people that you exist, and that you are loving, you most certainly would not go out of your way to make it appear that tangible benefits are distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics. If God does not exist, it is to be expected that the only kinds of benefits that anyone could expect to receive would be spiritual benefits. This is exactly the case that we have today.

Even if God does exist, you still lose. Jesus required that in order for a man to become saved, he must love God with all of his heart, soul, and mind. No rational minded and fair minded man can will himself to love God with all of his heart, soul, and mind, or even to a lesser degree than that. God is a hypocrite. The Bible says that killing people is wrong, but God frequently kills some of his most devout and faithful followers, and babies, and innocent animals. God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5. In the New Testament, God killed Ananias and Saphira over money. Jesus told people to be merciful, but God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. God refuses to reveal himself to some people who would accept him if they knew that he (supposedly) exists. No man can fairly be held accountable for refusing to accept a message that he would accept if he knew that the being who delivered the message (supposedly) exists. You would not be able to love a God who told lies. Will you please tell us why you consider lying to be worse than the atrocities that God has committed against mankind, and why you believe that God does not tell lies? If God exists, his actions and allowances indicate that at best, he is bi-polar and mentally incompetent, and that at worst, he is evil.

May I ask if you have an intimate, loving relationship with God, and if so, why?

But I do not need to prove that inerrancy is a fraud. All that I need to do is to adopt a neutral position, as some undecided people have, and ask you to provide reasonable proof of your affirmative position. Following your own same line of reasoning, if I told you that I saw a pig sprout wings and fly, and you questioned my claim, it would be valid for me to say you have not disproved my claim.

I have posted some of Farrell Till's comments about Biblical inerrancy on several occasions in the thread that is titled ‘2 Peter 3:9’, but so far, you have refused to discuss them. Do you now have enough confidence in your position to debate some of Farrell Till's comments about inerrancy? Following is what I posted in the other thread on at least two occasions, and which you conveniently DID NOT reply to:

In order for you to make a valid claim that the Bible is inerrant, you would have to reasonably establish which writings comprised the original Bible. You cannot do that.

Consider the following:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels got written by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures-- the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]

Johnny: Noted award winning Bible scholar Dr. Elaine Pagels has aptly said "The victors [Johnny: meaning orthodox Christians] rewrote history, 'their way.'" It was a power struggle, plain and simple.

Regarding predestination, I would like to debate that absurd issue with you in a new thread. How about it?

Johnny Skeptic

There is a very interesting article at http://www.red-ice.net/specialreport...knowledge.html. It is titled 'God the divine Liar. The Forbidden Knowledge.' The author discusses Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

It is interesting to note that if Adam and Eve had never committed a sin, and never knew anything about good and evil, suffering, and hardship, they would never have been able to appreciate their good fortune. If Adam and Eve have never committed a sin, what in the world would they talked about with each other, and with God? There would be no dangers, no bad weather, no sickness, no serious obstacles to overcome, no evil beings, and no competitive sports. No man can have any idea what a good God is unless he knows what an evil God is. The story of Adam and Eve is just one example of the Bible's many fairy tales. Even if the story is true, it depicts a God who is mentally incompetent.