Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Solo · 11-06-2011, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

The underlined phrase is translated from the Greek απο κυριου πνευματος, and forces Paul's text into a traditional Jewish / Christian formula. However, the literal translation is 'from Lord Spirit', with both nouns in genitive in a reverse order (i.e. ανο πνευματος (του) κυριου) from what one would expect if Paul intended express what the KJV translation says he did.

Most translations preserve the genitive binding of the nouns (starting with Vulgate a domini spiritu) which in English is commonly expressed as 'from the Lord which is the Spirit'.

Best,
Jiri

Hi Jiri,

One of the reasons that I prefer to use tables with a commonly accepted English translation (RSV/Brenton) and the Greek (GNT/Septuagint, all via Bibleworks) is because I want to demonstrate how difficult it is to analyze the books of NT from a translation.

Hi David,
of course you are right. Some ideas are easily rendered across languages, others are not. However, to my mind, there is a much more serious issue with interpreting the NT in that most of the texts (all of them ?) were written for an internal community consumption, and are deliberately obscured by occult references to spiritual events which the earliest communities believed were given to them individually as the elect of God. Further, the patristic church made radical departure of these 'spirit driven' early cultures and substituted them with dogma and ritual qhich makes the earliest beliefs something akin to Russia in the eyes of Winston Churchill: a riddle, wrapped in mystery, inside an enigma.

So it is really hard to cut through the later vines of theological dogmas, maxims and taboos and get at the root of the texts. And it is then a question whether the texts seem so dense because of the linguistic issues in translation from the Greek, or psychological issues in translation from an uncanny apprehension of reality (which would have been weird even to the ancients, see. eg Acts 26:24).

Take for example Matthew's 6:22 : 'If your eye sees well (ἐὰν οὖν ᾖ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου ἁπλοῦς) your whole body will be full of light (ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου φωτεινὸν ἔσται)'. I don't care how good the interpreter's Greek is, unless he has a competent view of the neuro-psychological facets of altered mentation, his interpretation will be off by miles, in the land of fable or empty theorizing. What on earth is 'whole body full of light' ? Or is it 'whole body turning into light' ? Has anyone in the family or a friend had a body full of light ? Can the interpreter even imagine what Matthew talks about ?

If not, the interpreter will not be able to penetrate the import of Mark's Jesus saying about 'hiding the lamp' in 4:21 and will be baffled by my insistence that the saying complements 8:38, the Son of Man who will be ashamed of those ashamed of Jesus and his words. So essentially, we have here the problem so well described by Allan Watts back in the 1970's : It is one thing to eat a steak, and quite another to attempt to digest a page of a menu with the word 'steak' printed on it.

So, when I read Paul, I more or less take for granted that Paul had an ecstatic gnosis of (what he calls the) Lord, and that he tweaked the scripture to convince those whose knowledge of it was not as good as his but who laboured under similar afflictions, that his and their gnosis was in fact foretold by the tanakh, is fully aligned with Moses and the prophets, and thus is guaranteed to come from the highest authority. Paul does not interpret this experience via the Septuagint, he foists his experience on it; he shamelessly ditches the law and invents new concepts and semantics to account for his ecstatic moods which he interprets as being overjoyed by (the) Lord and suffering as his servant, in receiving the mystery of the incarnation.

Hence my scepticism to chances of getting anything substantial by seeking grammatical or exegetical rules as key to decoding the ideas of the NT.

Quote:

Gotta take my son to Sunday School (his mom's idea).

DCH

Not by any chance ashamed of the gospel, are you ?

Best,
Jiri

spin · 11-06-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The underlined phrase is translated from the Greek απο κυριου πνευματος, and forces Paul's text into a traditional Jewish / Christian formula. However, the literal translation is 'from Lord Spirit', with both nouns in genitive in a reverse order (i.e. ανο πνευματος (του) κυριου) from what one would expect if Paul intended express what the KJV translation says he did.

Most translations preserve the genitive binding of the nouns (starting with Vulgate a domini spiritu) which in English is commonly expressed as 'from the Lord which is the Spirit'.

This doesn't help you change the reference of κυριου from god to Jesus. It's a hapax legomenon. You can't make much out of what you have no evidence for.

DCHindley · 11-06-2011, 05:36 PM

This next section analyzes the 3rd class of passages discussed by Champion:

This leads us also to the inclusion of several other passages from the epistles of Paul, which are of rather a different nature from those mentioned above, and yet contain characteristics so similar that they must be brought into consideration:

Verse	Blessing	God Talk	Christ Talk	Glory Talk
RSV Rom 1:25		… God … the Creator,		who is blessed into the ages! Amen
RSV Rom 4:17		… [the] God …,		who gives life to the dead and calls the (things) that do not exist into existence.
RSV Rom 16:27		to [the] only wise God,	through Jesus Christ,	to whom (be) the glory into the ages! Amen.
RSV 1 Cor 8:6a		… (there is) one God, the Father,		from whom are all (things) and we return to him,
RSV 1 Cor 8:6b			(there is) also one Lord, Jesus Christ,	through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
RSV 2 Cor 1:3	Blessed be	the God and Father	of the Lord of us Jesus Christ,	the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
RSV 2 Cor 11:31		The God and Father …	of the Lord Jesus,	he who is blessed for ever
RSV Gal 1:3	Grace to you and peace	from God the Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ,
RSV Eph 1:3	Blessed be	the God and Father	of the Lord of us Jesus Christ,	who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, in Christ
RSV Eph 4:6		one God and Father of us all,		who is above all and through all and in all.
RSV Phi 4:20		But to the God and Father of us		(be) glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Synagogue Kadesh Prayer (ca. 900 CE)	Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honoured, adored and lauded be the name	of the Holy One, blessed be He,		above and beyond all the blessings, hymns, praises and consolations that are uttered in the world! And say, Amen.

If the doxology is intended to glorify or exalt God, why is Jesus Christ hanging about like the shy guy at the local disco (boy that probably dates me)? 1 Cor 8:6 even goes so far as to make Christ share in God's glory, as the COO to God as CEO.

"What thinkest thou, Simon?"

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

RSV 2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,	BGT 2 Corinthians 1:3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ πατὴρ τῶν οἰκτιρμῶν καὶ θεὸς πάσης παρακλήσεως,
RSV Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,	BGT Ephesians 1:3 Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ εὐλογήσας ἡμᾶς ἐν πάσῃ εὐλογίᾳ πνευματικῇ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ,
RSV Romans 9:5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.	BGT Romans 9:5 ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.
RSV 2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie.	BGT 2 Corinthians 11:31 ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ οἶδεν, ὁ ὢν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ὅτι οὐ ψεύδομαι.
RSV Romans 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.	BGT Romans 1:25 οἵτινες μετήλλαξαν τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν τῷ ψεύδει καὶ ἐσεβάσθησαν καὶ ἐλάτρευσαν τῇ κτίσει παρὰ τὸν κτίσαντα, ὅς ἐστιν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.
RSV Galatians 1:2 and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.	BGT Galatians 1:2 καὶ οἱ σὺν ἐμοὶ πάντες ἀδελφοὶ ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις τῆς Γαλατίας, 3 χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 4 τοῦ δόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, ὅπως ἐξέληται ἡμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος πονηροῦ κατὰ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν, 5 ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.
RSV Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages 26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith -- 27 to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.	BGT Romans 16:25 [Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου, 26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ᾽ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος, 27 μόνῳ σοφῷ θεῷ, διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.]
RSV Ephesians 3:20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.	BGT Ephesians 3:20 Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑπὲρ πάντα ποιῆσαι ὑπερεκπερισσοῦ ὧν αἰτούμεθα ἢ νοοῦμεν κατὰ τὴν δύναμιν τὴν ἐνεργουμένην ἐν ἡμῖν, 21 αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.
RSV Romans 4:17 as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations" -- in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.	BGT Romans 4:17 καθὼς γέγραπται ὅτι πατέρα πολλῶν ἐθνῶν τέθεικά σε, κατέναντι οὗ ἐπίστευσεν θεοῦ τοῦ ζῳοποιοῦντος τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ καλοῦντος τὰ μὴ ὄντα ὡς ὄντα.
RSV 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.	BGT 1 Corinthians 8:6 ἀλλ᾽ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν, καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς δι᾽ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
RSV Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"	BGT Romans 11:33 Ὦ βάθος πλούτου καὶ σοφίας καὶ γνώσεως θεοῦ• ὡς ἀνεξεραύνητα τὰ κρίματα αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀνεξιχνίαστοι αἱ ὁδοὶ αὐτοῦ. 34 τίς γὰρ ἔγνω νοῦν κυρίου; ἢ τίς σύμβουλος αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; 35 ἢ τίς προέδωκεν αὐτῷ, καὶ ἀνταποδοθήσεται αὐτῷ;
RSV Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.	BGT Ephesians 4:6 εἷς θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ πάντων, ὁ ἐπὶ πάντων καὶ διὰ πάντων καὶ ἐν πᾶσιν.
RSV Philippians 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. 20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.	BGT Philippians 4:19 ὁ δὲ θεός μου πληρώσει πᾶσαν χρείαν ὑμῶν κατὰ τὸ πλοῦτος αὐτοῦ ἐν δόξῃ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ. 20 τῷ δὲ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ ἡμῶν ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.

DCHindley · 11-06-2011, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Gotta take my son to Sunday School (his mom's idea).

Not by any chance ashamed of the gospel, are you ?

Best,
Jiri

No, not at all. Brought up an Episcopalian, went through my evangelical period, and now am in an agnostic period, but I understand Christianity (at least from a Protestant perspective). My wife is Roman Catholic, and Catholics send their children to "CCD". Hence my children have gone too. I am the chauffeur, so to speak.

DCH

DCHindley · 11-06-2011, 06:20 PM

Jiri,

I have nothing invested in the books of the NT (or OT, etc), so I prefer to look at them dispassionately, as raw data seeking an explanation. There is a reason why in medieval times history used to be categorized as a type of rhetoric.

In my "professional" life, I spend my days examining payroll records to confirm that a company reported the right amount of payroll to workers compensation, and we basically compare two types of quarterly tax reports and payroll summary reports, and a couple more end of year wage reports. If you know what is supposed to be reported in the tax reports, you can compare and contrast them to see if anomalies pop out at you.

Sometimes they tell you some company over reported payroll and thus overpaid for their coverage. Other times things go the other way. It doesn't make a difference to me either way, but I try to be as pleasant and respectful as possible. Same thing here.

If a company says that their CPA can bend tax law to the very limit of legality, without crossing over, well, I'd be a tad suspicious. The CPA may well be able to do that, but I have to wonder. When confronted with tax reports that don't conform to what I expect, then I simply examine the payroll records closely.

That is kind of what I am doing with the bible and early Christian literature.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Hi David,
of course you are right. Some ideas are easily rendered across languages, others are not. However, to my mind, there is a much more serious issue with interpreting the NT in that most of the texts (all of them ?) were written for an internal community consumption, and are deliberately obscured by occult references to spiritual events which the earliest communities believed were given to them individually as the elect of God. Further, the patristic church made radical departure of these 'spirit driven' early cultures and substituted them with dogma and ritual qhich makes the earliest beliefs something akin to Russia in the eyes of Winston Churchill: a riddle, wrapped in mystery, inside an enigma.

So it is really hard to cut through the later vines of theological dogmas, maxims and taboos and get at the root of the texts. And it is then a question whether the texts seem so dense because of the linguistic issues in translation from the Greek, or psychological issues in translation from an uncanny apprehension of reality (which would have been weird even to the ancients, see. eg Acts 26:24).

...

So, when I read Paul, I more or less take for granted that Paul had an ecstatic gnosis of (what he calls the) Lord, and that he tweaked the scripture to convince those whose knowledge of it was not as good as his but who laboured under similar afflictions, that his and their gnosis was in fact foretold by the tanakh, is fully aligned with Moses and the prophets, and thus is guaranteed to come from the highest authority. Paul does not interpret this experience via the Septuagint, he foists his experience on it; he shamelessly ditches the law and invents new concepts and semantics to account for his ecstatic moods which he interprets as being overjoyed by (the) Lord and suffering as his servant, in receiving the mystery of the incarnation.

Hence my scepticism to chances of getting anything substantial by seeking grammatical or exegetical rules as key to decoding the ideas of the NT.

...

Best,
Jiri

Solo · 11-07-2011, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Not by any chance ashamed of the gospel, are you ?

Best,
Jiri

No, not at all. Brought up an Episcopalian, went through my evangelical period, and now am in an agnostic period, but I understand Christianity (at least from a Protestant perspective). My wife is Roman Catholic, and Catholics send their children to "CCD". Hence my children have gone too. I am the chauffeur, so to speak.

DCH

Interesting; thanks for sharing.

Myself, I am a Catholic lapsed shortly after baptism. My only theological interest in Jesus in my childhood were Christmas gifts, though I did express keen curiosity in the nimbuses around the heads of the holy family, on a picture over the bed where mom and dad slept or fought. I could hear them from my bedroom adjacent. Once I even went there to help mom when she was crying for help, and saw my dad having mom in a headlock mostly under the blanket. And when they saw me they stopped fighting and told me to get out. Mom told me later that the fighting was not serious; that it was like me fighting with my sister. Which of course was a lie because me and my sister were fighting real serious. Once, I remember, my dad and mom woke me up when they were arguing. It was mostly dad who was screaming at mom, like 'for this I did not save my life'. And then there was this loud thud after he said that she should stick her - and this is really weird - her 'man of hypondria' into ...it was one of the dirty words which only women have and my sister and I were not allowed to use. I knew what the thud was. It was mum's big book with the cross on it which she always had on her night table when she was sick. My father hated it because mum would not fight with him when she had the book with the cross on her night table. I hated when my mum was sick. She did not want to talk to anyone.

When mom was feeling better, the book with the cross disappeared and some other book would be beside her bed. When she was really happy, it was one of the books which my sister and I were not allowed to open and which were normally in a secret place which my sister knew but would not tell me. So, when I saw one of the books with the ladies with squinting eyes and painted faces and umbrellas, I asked mum about what dad said about the 'man of hypondria'. And she laughed her head off and called my dad 'an idiot'. It's the bible, she said (which I knew) 'not a manual of hypochondria'. I asked her what hypochondria was. She laughed again and said : 'I will tell you later, sweetie'. She never did but I found out from Tony and everything fell into place for me.

BTW, my ex is a Catholic also and both my kids went to Catholic high school. My younger one is still there, in grade 9. He says Jesus never existed but got 92% on his report card in religious studies. I am ok. My 18-year old daughter wears hijab, an influence of her new girl-friend, who is Egyptian. 'It's not a moslem thing', she said, 'it's for respect. I don't like people bugging me about it.' Right. Of course if Virgin Mary were to appear again, the first thing she would have to defend is her unalienable right to wear hijab.

Best,
Jiri

judge · 11-07-2011, 08:09 PM

Interestingly the eastern peshitta, never uses the Lord to refer to Jesus, only my Lord/our Lord. Whenever it uses the Lord it refers to god.*
Here is an English translation of the western peshitto, which is near enough to the peshitta for this purpose.
More in depth analysis can be done here..
Why the peshitta would differ in this way is slightly mysterious in light of current theories on its origin.

* This occurs not only in Paul but in the gospels as well.

Sheshbazzar · 11-07-2011, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Not by any chance ashamed of the gospel, are you ?

Best,
Jiri

No, not at all. Brought up an Episcopalian, went through my evangelical period, and now am in an agnostic period, but I understand Christianity (at least from a Protestant perspective). My wife is Roman Catholic, and Catholics send their children to "CCD". Hence my children have gone too. I am the chauffeur, so to speak.

DCH

Interesting; thanks for sharing.

Myself, I am a Catholic lapsed shortly after baptism. My only theological interest in Jesus in my childhood were Christmas gifts, though I did express keen curiosity in the nimbuses around the heads of the holy family, on a picture over the bed where mom and dad slept or fought. I could hear them from my bedroom adjacent. Once I even went there to help mom when she was crying for help, and saw my dad having mom in a headlock mostly under the blanket. And when they saw me they stopped fighting and told me to get out. Mom told me later that the fighting was not serious; that it was like me fighting with my sister. Which of course was a lie because me and my sister were fighting real serious. Once, I remember, my dad and mom woke me up when they were arguing. It was mostly dad who was screaming at mom, like 'for this I did not save my life'. And then there was this loud thud after he said that she should stick her - and this is really weird - her 'man of hypondria' into ...it was one of the dirty words which only women have and my sister and I were not allowed to use. I knew what the thud was. It was mum's big book with the cross on it which she always had on her night table when she was sick. My father hated it because mum would not fight with him when she had the book with the cross on her night table. I hated when my mum was sick. She did not want to talk to anyone.

When mom was feeling better, the book with the cross disappeared and some other book would be beside her bed. When she was really happy, it was one of the books which my sister and I were not allowed to open and which were normally in a secret place which my sister knew but would not tell me. So, when I saw one of the books with the ladies with squinting eyes and painted faces and umbrellas, I asked mum about what dad said about the 'man of hypondria'. And she laughed her head off and called my dad 'an idiot'. It's the bible, she said (which I knew) 'not a manual of hypochondria'. I asked her what hypochondria was. She laughed again and said : 'I will tell you later, sweetie'. She never did but I found out from Tony and everything fell into place for me.

BTW, my ex is a Catholic also and both my kids went to Catholic high school. My younger one is still there, in grade 9. He says Jesus never existed but got 92% on his report card in religious studies. I am ok. My 18-year old daughter wears hijab, an influence of her new girl-friend, who is Egyptian. 'It's not a moslem thing', she said, 'it's for respect. I don't like people bugging me about it.' Right. Of course if Virgin Mary were to appear again, the first thing she would have to defend is her unalienable right to wear hijab.

Best,
Jiri

Just wanted to tell you, I really enjoyed this post Jiri.

Appreciated comic relief in what is an otherwise an oft dull and groaning thread.

DCHindley · 11-08-2011, 09:14 AM

Mr Hindley, you son of a camel!

What you labeled as the 3rd class of passages in Champion's book was really the 4th class of passages!

Skippy, your evil alter ego twin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

This next section analyzes the 3rd class of passages [read "4th class"] discussed by Champion:

This leads us also to the inclusion of several other passages from the epistles of Paul, which are of rather a different nature from those mentioned above, and yet contain characteristics so similar that they must be brought into consideration:

Verse	Blessing	God Talk	Christ Talk	Glory Talk
RSV Rom 1:25		… God … the Creator,		who is blessed into the ages! Amen
RSV Rom 4:17		… [the] God …,		who gives life to the dead and calls the (things) that do not exist into existence.
RSV Rom 16:27		to [the] only wise God,	through Jesus Christ,	to whom (be) the glory into the ages! Amen.
RSV 1 Cor 8:6a		… (there is) one God, the Father,		from whom are all (things) and we return to him,
RSV 1 Cor 8:6b			(there is) also one Lord, Jesus Christ,	through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
RSV 2 Cor 1:3	Blessed be	the God and Father	of the Lord of us Jesus Christ,	the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
RSV 2 Cor 11:31		The God and Father …	of the Lord Jesus,	he who is blessed for ever
RSV Gal 1:3	Grace to you and peace	from God the Father of us	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ,
RSV Eph 1:3	Blessed be	the God and Father	of the Lord of us Jesus Christ,	who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, in Christ
RSV Eph 4:6		one God and Father of us all,		who is above all and through all and in all.
RSV Phi 4:20		But to the God and Father of us		(be) glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Synagogue Kadesh Prayer (ca. 900 CE)	Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honoured, adored and lauded be the name	of the Holy One, blessed be He,		above and beyond all the blessings, hymns, praises and consolations that are uttered in the world! And say, Amen.

DCHindley · 11-08-2011, 09:56 AM

DCH, you ignorant fool.

Since you idiotically left out the real section #3, I shall supply it for you:

In addition to these, similar formulas are also found in other parts of the Epistles.

Verse	Who	What	Gilding for the Lilly
Romans 15:33	The God of peace	(be) with all of you. Amen.
2 Corinthians 13:11	… the God of love and peace	will be with you.
Philippians 4:9	… the God of peace	will be with you.
2 Thessalonians 3:16a	Now may the Lord of peace himself	give you peace at all times in all ways.
2 Thessalonians 3:16b	The Lord	(be) with you all.
Romans 15:13	the God of hope	May (he) fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
Philippians 4:7	And the peace of God, which passes all understanding,	will keep (safe) your hearts and your minds,	in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 6:23	Peace // from God [the] Father	//be to the brethren, and love with faith,//	and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 16	16//*//even God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,	16 May (he) 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.	//*our Lord Jesus Christ himself,//
1 Thessalonians 3:12	and the Lord	May (he) make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all men, as we do to you,	at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
1 Thessalonians 3:13	13 // In order that // before our God and Father,	////he establish your hearts unblamable in holiness
1 Thessalonians 5:23	May the God of peace himself	sanctify you wholly;	and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3:5	the Lord	May (he) direct your hearts to the love of God	and to the steadfastness of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 3:11	our God and Father himself,//*//	may (he) direct our way to you;	//*and our Lord Jesus,//
Romans 15:5	the God of steadfastness and encouragement	May grant you to live in such harmony with one another, //// 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father //*//	//in accord with Christ Jesus,// //* of our Lord Jesus Christ.//

The Skipster, your evil twin (I am the guy just over Dave's right shoulder)

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11-07-2011, 08:09 PM	#27
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Interestingly the eastern peshitta, never uses the Lord to refer to Jesus, only my Lord/our Lord. Whenever it uses the Lord it refers to god.* Here is an English translation of the western peshitto, which is near enough to the peshitta for this purpose. More in depth analysis can be done here.. Why the peshitta would differ in this way is slightly mysterious in light of current theories on its origin. * This occurs not only in Paul but in the gospels as well.

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