Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 08-18-2008, 09:11 AM

Found Origen refence from Homily on Leviticus quoted here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10709a.htm

Here is nice discussion of some dates from Clement: http://pursiful.com/?p=182

aa5874 · 08-18-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Richard carriers article is just not that good. There are a number of problems he needs to address, some of which we looked at in a previous thread.

Luke seems on closer examination to give a birth date of 3 BC.

See here

The analysis from the previous post is completely flawed.

John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius. According to the author of Luke, John the Baptist was to "prepare the way of the Lord".

How long did it take John the Baptist to "prepare the way"?

The poster has totally failed to establish when Jesus met John the Baptist or prove that Jesus was 30 years old during the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius.

And it must be remembered that Irenaeus, as early as the 2nd century, claimed Jesus was fifty years old before he suffered and died. See Against Heresies.

vid · 08-18-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

And it must be remembered that Irenaeus, as early as the 2nd century, claimed Jesus was fifty years old before he suffered and died.

Wow, interesting... this makes any bible-based dating even more impossible. If he died during reign of pilate (as said by all 4 canonical gospels), he would have to be born 14BCE, and all other early dating points of gospels (return from egypt while young in Mark, quirnius in Luke) must be invalid. I see why this part of christian tradition is so much ignored

Roger Pearse · 08-18-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

My point is simply documenting situation about birth date of jesus, and part of that is history of opinions on that matter.

I agree. Raw collections of data such as this can only be invaluable. As you have discovered, quite a lot of it is actually online somewhere in English, if one looks.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 08-18-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

- 171—183 - Theophilus of Antioch (considered forgery)

"The earliest identification of the 25th of December with the birthday of Christ is in a passage, otherwise unknown and probably spurious, of Theophilus of Antioch (A.D . 171—183), preserved in Latin by the Magdeburg centuriators (i . 3, 118), to the effect that the Gauls
contended that as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on the 25th of December, whatever day of the week it might be, so they ought to celebrate the Pascha on the 25th of March when the resurrection befell."

This one seems a lot like hearsay to me. Does anyone have access to the "Madgeburg Centuries"?

I found this online:

"The opinion and practice of the western nations were quite different from those of the east. The centuriators of Magdeburg repeat a passage in Theophilus of Cæsarea, which makes the churches of Gaul say: “Since the birth of Christ is celebrated on the 25th of December, on whatever day of the week it may fall, so also should the resurrection of Jesus be celebrated on the 25th of March, whatever day of the week it may be, the Lord having risen again on that day.”" -- is in Voltaire's Philosophical Dictionary.

Voltaire wouldn't be a reliable source.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

vid · 08-27-2008, 01:22 PM

from http://pursiful.com/?p=184:

Quote:

Augustine (fifth century) alludes to the fact that the Donatists, unlike the Catholics, had not adopted the celebration of Epiphany on 6 January, which seems to imply that they did celebrate 25 December, which in turn suggests that this date for Christmas must have already existed prior to the Donatist schism of 311.

I couldn't find full text of this online. It is a lot of supposing anyway.

More on Hippolytus from http://www.themoorings.org/apologeti...y/Chrmas.html:

Quote:

But many scholars believe that the reference to 25 December is a late correction of the date actually stated by the author (31). The author's date may be preserved in a single manuscript which curiously contradicts itself by giving two dates: both 25 December and 2 April (32). For two reasons, it is likely that 2 April is the original reading.
- A third-century work called De Pascha Computus, which, it is agreed, is based on a lost work of Hippolytus, states that Christ was born on Passover (33). It is therefore probable that Hippolytus himself was of the same opinion. Although the date of Passover Eve varies from year to year, it is never far from 2 April.
- In the Lateran Museum at Rome is an ancient statue of Hippolytus which was probably executed shortly after his death (34). This statue bears the dates of Passover for the years 222-333, and next to one date, 2 April of a certain year, is inscribed "genesis ['birth'] of Jesus Christ" (35). No doubt the statue was intended to honor Hippolytus as the one who calculated the dates of future Passovers. We therefore surmise that in the third century, it was believed that Hippolytus set Christ's birth on 2 April, one of the recurring dates in the Passover cycle.

It says text of Hippolytus "commentary on daniel" can be found in Kirsopp Lake, "Christmas," in Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark; New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1910). Even though it's age, I didn't find it online either

I also found lot of unsourced references saying that it was Aurelius (~270 AD), who made decree about 25th december being Sol Invictus feast. Does anyone know source for this claim?

andrewcriddle · 08-28-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

It says text of Hippolytus "commentary on daniel" can be found in Kirsopp Lake, "Christmas," in Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark; New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1910). Even though it's age, I didn't find it online either

Volume 3 of Hasting's Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics (the one with Christmas) is online here http://www.archive.org/details/encyc...aofr03hastuoft

Warning large downloads.

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith · 08-28-2008, 03:28 PM

Hippolytus, Commentary on Daniel, in PDF.

Ben.

vid · 08-29-2008, 01:44 PM

Thanks.

I was only able to grab the badly OCRed version of Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics. That "Christmas" article (page 606) contains nice info on De Pascha Computus (greek quotation), Hippolytus (discussion of manuscripts), some "Clementine homily" which I didn't really understand (with greek quotation), Ephrahim Syrus (need to review it more), and more.

I will have to wait to until i can download the 100MB scanned version, and go through it.

Clivedurdle · 08-31-2008, 01:21 PM

What are these references to 5500 about? Was that thought to be a mid point in a universal timeline?

And Eusebius if he didn't write the Gospel birth stories looks like he heavily edited them!

Cause and effect often works either way!

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08-18-2008, 09:11 AM	#21
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Found Origen refence from Homily on Leviticus quoted here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10709a.htm Here is nice discussion of some dates from Clement: http://pursiful.com/?p=182

08-28-2008, 03:28 PM	#28
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Hippolytus, Commentary on Daniel, in PDF. Ben.

08-29-2008, 01:44 PM	#29
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	Thanks. I was only able to grab the badly OCRed version of Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics. That "Christmas" article (page 606) contains nice info on De Pascha Computus (greek quotation), Hippolytus (discussion of manuscripts), some "Clementine homily" which I didn't really understand (with greek quotation), Ephrahim Syrus (need to review it more), and more. I will have to wait to until i can download the 100MB scanned version, and go through it.

08-31-2008, 01:21 PM	#30
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	What are these references to 5500 about? Was that thought to be a mid point in a universal timeline? And Eusebius if he didn't write the Gospel birth stories looks like he heavily edited them! Cause and effect often works either way!

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