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Old 07-21-2008, 11:22 PM   #1
vid
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Default List of early christians commenting on Jesus birth date

I compiled list of early christian discussions of Jesus birth date, up to middle of 5th century. Everything I could find is here. If you know any other references, or can fill in some missing information about ones I listed, please do so. Sorry for readability, this was originally in a .txt document. Hope this helps somebody else too.


- 171—183 - Theophilus of Antioch (considered forgery)

"The earliest identification of the 25th of December with the birthday of Christ is
in a passage, otherwise unknown and probably spurious, of Theophilus of Antioch (A.D . 171—183),
preserved in Latin by the Magdeburg centuriators (i . 3, 118), to the effect that the Gauls
contended that as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on the 25th of December, whatever
day of the week it might be, so they ought to celebrate the Pascha on the 25th of March
when the resurrection befell."

cited from: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/CHR_CL...of_Christ.html

<no full text found>



- cca 200 - Clement of Alexandria: Stromata, book 1, chapter 21

"There are then from the birth of Moses till this captivity nine hundred
and seventy-two years; but according to strict chronological accuracy,
one thousand and eighty-five, six months, ten days."

This dates to 6 january using egyptian calendar.

"And they say that it was the fifteenth year of Tiberius Cæsar, the fifteenth
day of the month Tubi; and some that it was the eleventh of the same month.
And treating of His passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took
place in the sixteenth year of Tiberius, on the twenty-fifth of Phamenoth;
and others the twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi and others say that on the nineteenth
of Pharmuthi the Saviour suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the
twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi."

full text: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.i.xxi.html



- 202 - Hippolytus, Commentary on Daniel 4:23 (considered forgery)
The next mention of the 25th of December is in Hippolytus' (c . 202) commentary on Daniel iv . 23
Jesus, he says, was born at Bethlehem on the 25th of December, a Wednesday, in the
forty-second year of Augustus . This passage also is almost certainly interpolated .
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/CHR_CL...of_Christ.html

"For the first appearance of our Lord in the flesh took place in Bethlehem eight days before
the Kalends of January [25 December], on the fourth day [Wednesday], under Emperor Augustus,
in the year 5500"
http://www.themoorings.org/apologeti...gy/Chrmas.html

Single manuscript lists also a 2nd April dating, that may be original.
See discussion in previous link.

<no full text found>



- 221 - Sextus Julius Africanus, Chronography, book 1 fragment

"For the Jews, deriving their origin from them as descendants of Abraham, having
been taught a modest mind, and one such as becomes men, together with
the truth by the spirit of Moses, have handed down to us, by their
extant Hebrew histories, the number of 5500 years as the period up to
the advent of the Word of salvation, that was announced to the world in
the time of the sway of the Caesars."

full text: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.v.v.i.html



- 243 - De Pascha Computus

"The end result, and "ingenious piece of mathematical allegorizing", gives a
birthdate of Wednesday 28 March"

Susan K. Roll, Toward the Origins of Christmas, page 81
http://books.google.com/books?id=6MXPEMbpjoAC

<no full text found>



- 245 - Origen, Homily on Leviticus 8

As late as 245 Origen, in his eighth homily on Leviticus, repudiates as sinful the
very idea of keeping the birthday of Christ " as if he were a king Pharaoh."

cited from: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/CHR_CL...of_Christ.html

<no full text found>



- 3rd century - On computing the date of easter

"The anonymous african author of a book called "On computing the
date of easter" contended, following this symbolism, that the
birthday of christ should most appropriately fall not on march 25
(so, obviously some people were celebrating his birthday on that day),
but instead on march 28, the fourth day of creation."

Joseph F. Kelly, The Origins of Christmas, page 60 and 62
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERahko4FXJgC

<no full text found>



- 326 - Eusebius, Church History, Book 1, Chapter 5

"It was in the forty-second year of the reign of Augustus and the twenty-eighth
after the subjugation of Egypt and the death of Antony and Cleopatra, with whom
the dynasty of the Ptolemies in Egypt came to an end, that our Saviour and Lord
Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea, according to the prophecies which
had been uttered concerning him. His birth took place during the first
census, while Cyrenius was governor of Syria."

full text: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm



- 354 - Chronography of 354, part 12

"When these were consuls, Jesus Christ was born 8 days before the kalends of
January on the day of Venus[25 december]"
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ch...4_08_fasti.htm

"VIII kal. Ian. natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae. mense Ianuario."
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ch...ns_martyrs.htm

also mentions sol invictus feast at 25th december:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ch...6_calendar.htm

(according to wikipedia, this is earliest reference to sol invictus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronography_of_354)



- 363 - Calendar of Nicomedia, extant in 5th century Syriac copy
(maybe this is same 412 syriac calendar mentioned later?)

Susan K. Roll, Toward the Origins of Christmas, page 86
http://books.google.com/books?id=6MXPEMbpjoAC

<no full text found>



- 374-377 - Epiphanus, Panarion

“For Christ was born in the month of January, that is, on the eighth before
the Ides of January -- in the Roman calendar this is the evening of January
fifth, at the beginning of January sixth. In the Egyptian calendar it is the
eleventh of Tybi.”
(Epiphanius, Panarion, Section IV, Chapter 31 (51), 24,1).

"For the magi themselves reached Bethlehem, after a two year interval, on this
very day of the Epiphany. . .As I have said before and am obliged to say over
and over, this was the day in the thirteenth consulship of Octavius Augustus
and the consulship of Silanus which fell on the eighth day before the Ides
of January, thirteen days after the increase of the daylight. This lasts from
the winter solstice, the eighth before the Kalends of January, until the actual
day of Christ's birth and Manifestation, because of the type I spoke of --
the Savior himself and his disciples, making thirteen."
(Epiphanius, Panarion, Section IV, Chapter 31 (51), 22, 18).

cited from: http://thriceholy.net/christmas.html
<no full text found>



- 386-388 - John Chrysostom, In diem natalem

"The same line of argumentation was articulated by John Chrysostom late in
fourth century, particulary in his sermon "In diem natalem", and was adduced
by Engberding and others as further evidence for the calculational mentality
which could have determined the 25 December date."

Susan K. Roll, Toward the Origins of Christmas
http://books.google.com/books?id=6MXPEMbpjoAC

(The context for "same line of argumentation" is missing from Google Books
preview)

full text in greek:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.e...__MGR.pdf.html

not sure about name translation in english, maybe it is here?
http://www.chrysostom.org/writings.html



- cca 400? - Augustine, On Trinity, book 4, chapter 5

"For He is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day
also He suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which He was conceived, where
no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which He was
buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before nor since. But He was born,
according to tradition, upon December the 25th."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130104.htm



- 412 - Syriac calendar begins on 26 december, but doesn't mention christmas.

Susan K. Roll, Toward the Origins of Christmas, page 71
http://books.google.com/books?id=6MXPEMbpjoAC

<no full text found>



- early 5th century - John Cassian, Conferences, Part 1, Conference 10, Chapter 2

"In the country of Egypt this custom is by ancient tradition observed that—when
Epiphany is past, which the priests of that province regard as the time, both of
our Lord’s baptism and also of His birth in the flesh, and so celebrate the
commemoration of either mystery not separately as in the Western provinces but
on the single festival of this day,"

full text: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/350810.htm
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Old 07-21-2008, 11:23 PM   #2
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Some extra info loosely related to topic:



- January 6th as pagan festival:

"Other early christians recorded that the pagan Egyptians observed
January 6 as a festival of the virgin-goddess Kore, while still
others identified the date as as the birthday of the god Osiris"

Joseph F. Kelly, The Origins of Christmas, page 59
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERahko4FXJgC



- Origen omits Christmas in his list of important christian feasts:

"If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are
accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord’s day,
the Preparation, the Passover, or Pentecost, [...]"

Origen, Against Celsus, Book 8, Chapter 22
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0...viii.xxii.html



- According to some articles I have read, Tertullian and Irenaeus are
supposed to omit christmas in their list of christian feasts, but
I wasn't able to locate these lists.
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:29 AM   #3
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For what it is worth, Jack Finegan's Handbook of Biblical Chronology (1964 but since reissued in revised form (or via: amazon.co.uk)) has a section devoted to early Christian Chronographers, the qustions (and problems) with several solutions proposed in ancient times for the dates of Jesus' birth, the beginning of his "ministry" and subsequent death.

DCH (on break)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
I compiled list of early christian discussions of Jesus birth date, up to middle of 5th century. Everything I could find is here. If you know any other references, or can fill in some missing information about ones I listed, please do so. Sorry for readability, this was originally in a .txt document. Hope this helps somebody else too.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:59 PM   #4
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Roger Pearse's excellent website contains material about the birth of Jesus by the Armenian Ananias of Shirak which appears to be using very early sources such as Polycarp
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/an...as_02_text.htm

Andrew Criddle
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:33 PM   #5
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Robin Lane Fox's (RLF) book, "Pagans and Christians, in the Mediterranean World from the second century AD to the conversion of Constantine (or via: amazon.co.uk)", spends a surprising large number of pages on the Oration of Constantine to the "assembly at Antioch". Constantine tells us the birth of jesus was predicted by a number of pagan Roman poets in the period BCE. Fox comments that this was a fraud twice over.

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Robin Lane Fox's (RLF) book, "Pagans and Christians, in the Mediterranean World from the second century AD to the conversion of Constantine (or via: amazon.co.uk)", spends a surprising large number of pages on the Oration of Constantine to the "assembly at Antioch". Constantine tells us the birth of jesus was predicted by a number of pagan Roman poets in the period BCE. Fox comments that this was a fraud twice over.
Could we have the page number where Lane-Fox makes this comment, please?

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Old 07-22-2008, 10:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Robin Lane Fox's (RLF) book, "Pagans and Christians, in the Mediterranean World from the second century AD to the conversion of Constantine (or via: amazon.co.uk)", spends a surprising large number of pages on the Oration of Constantine to the "assembly at Antioch". Constantine tells us the birth of jesus was predicted by a number of pagan Roman poets in the period BCE. Fox comments that this was a fraud twice over.
Could we have the page number where Lane-Fox makes this comment, please?

Here are my notes containing page numbers, interspersed with my own editorial comments:


Quote:

Constantine's Letters and Orations
p.627: "Constantine's speech "To the Assembly of the Saints" contained in Vita Constantini,
Book 5, and if genuine it is our longest surviving statement from an emperor
between Marcus' Meditations and Julian's letters."

p.627-662 Arguments relating to the specific dating of "The Oration"
Robin Lane Fox spends many pages leading up to this oration.

We know that at least part of the Oration was in Greek.
p.630: "At very best, the Greek translators cooperated
with the emperor before the speech was made public."
Eusebius notes (Vita) that the emperor composed his orations in Latin,
but that they were translated into Greek by special interpreters." (p.627)


p.636: "Letters to the Persians, and provincials - strong resemblance to Oration themes"

"Beginning at the remote Ocean around Britian, and those regions where,
according to the law of nature, the sun sinks below the horizon,
through the aid of the divine power I banished and utterly rooted out
every form of prevailing wickedness ... in the hope that the human race,
enlightened by me, might be recalled to the fit observance of the holy laws of God."
--- Letter of Constantine to the Persians.


p.637: 2nd Letter to Eastern Provinces (Early 325) - Constantine is "God's servant":

TIMELINE of movements - provided pp.634-662:
324, September 18: Constantine defeats Lucinius for the last time.
324, November 8: Constantine marks out the boundaries of his new city, Constantinople.
324, December 20: The Bishop of Antioch dies (there was no bishop when Ossius arrived)
325, Early ??: a "great and holy synod" of Christian leaders summoned to Ancyra
325, Early ??: Osius (the Christian emminence in Constantine court) sent to Antioch. Alexandria.
325, Early ??: Osius intervenes at both Antioch and Alexandria; summoned meetings.
325, January 13: Constantine's "coming visit to Egypt" (P. Oxy. 1261; VC 2.72)
325, February 23: Constantine issueing laws entitled "At Nicomedia".
325, April: Local synod at Alexandria - Ossius deposes schismatic bishop.
325, April: [FN:18] Ossius presided over every council he attended.
325, April: Council of Antioch - presided over by Ossius [FN:18]
325, April: "Constantine's sermon read on "Good Friday" after the Council of Antioch.
325, April: Antioch (R.L. Fox) - Constantine's Oration to "The assembly of the Saints"
325, Early May: Ossius to Alexandria with Letter for Arius from Constantine
325, May 26: papyrus refes to animals "despatched for the divine visit" (P. Oxy. 1626)
325, June 1: Constantine present at the Council of Nicaea.

[Editor: Timeline between "Bullneck's" military victory in the east and Nicaea.]

Fox notes (p.641) "Yet the visit to Egypt never took place.
As the Emperor remarked in his letter,
("he was a greater part of the way to Arius ...")
the Arian controversy turned him back."

[Editor: Constantine sends on to Alexandria his (supreme) agent Ossius.
I have yet to determine when Constantine (or his agent)
ripped the 1800 year old obelisk of Karnack from it foundations
according the account of Ammianus Marcellinus.]


Constantine's Orations to the Saints
At p.646/7 Fox suggests that Constantine's Oration to the Saints
was authored and orated by Constantine "at Antioch, Good Friday, 325".
Most ancient historians are today convinced that Constantine
both authored and read aloud this "document" in 324/325 CE.
It contains a number of novel social and political insights,
and a whole string of fraudulent misprepresentations:


(1) Berates the philosophers: "Socrates critical questioning ... menace to the state".
"Pythagoras had stolen his teaching from Egypt, Plato believed there were many gods."
"Plato strived for the unknowable ... wrote about a first and second God."

[Editor: When critical questioning is a menace to the state there's a problem.
When military supremacists edict for the destruction of the writings
of leading present and past academics (eg: Porphyry, Arius, Apollonius of Tyana)
by book burning, it is a clear and unambiguous signal (from modern history)
that we are dealing with a malevolent dictator, a megalomaniac with a big army.]

(2) Berates the poets as worse than the philosophers;
because "poets wrote falsely about the gods".
FOX: "In a few broad sweeps, Constantine had damned
the free use of reason and banished poetic imagination."

[Editor: Our thesis is that Constantine invented and sponsored christianity.
He would not lightly tolerate any opposition to his new invention.]

(3) "A dove, said Constantine, had alighted on the virgin mary,
like the dove which had flown from Noah's ark.

[Editor: A fact never before mentioned by casts of thousands.
Constantine probably enjoyed his own stories the most.
Nero wanted to be on stage and be a divine actor,
Constantine wanted the spotlights, and to be a divine author.]

(4) Constantine refers to an ancient Sibyl, a priestess from Erythrae
who had served Apollo at the 'serpents Tripod' at Delphi.
Constantine then quotes (in the Greek) thirty-four hexameters,
from the inspired truth of the Sibyl.
Most notably, the acrostic formed by the first Greek letter
of each line spelt "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour, Cross."

But Constantine was alive to the arguments of skeptics ...


"They suspect that "someone of our religion,
not without the gifts of the prophetic muse,
had inserted false lines and forged the Sibyl's moral tone.
These skeptics were already known to Origen ... (Constantine continues)
"Our people have compared the chronologies with great accuracy",
and the "age" of the Sibyl's verses excludes the view
that they are a post-christian fake."


[Editor: Here "The Boss" essentially shoots himself in the foot.
He explicity defines the recently appeared genre:
"We may be suspected of clever forgery"
said the Boss to his new troops, civilians and saints,
but our best intelligence people assure us
that these things definitely aren't fake."

Does this sort of propaganda sound familiar?
What is the modus operandi of malevolent despotism?]


(5) But wait, Robin Lane Fox has more to say:
His proof of this comparison was unexpected: Cicero (106-43 BCE)
Cicero chanced upon this poem and translated it to Latin.
The Sibyl, Constantine said, had prophecised christ
in an acrostic, known to Cicero.

Robin Lane Fox comments ... "the proof was a fraud twice over."


[Editor: Fraud is demonstrated in the microcosm of the Oration.
Fraud is also demonstrated in the macrocosm of political reality.
Our thesis is that Constantine invented a fabrication and fiction.
Ancient history informs us that c.331 CE, he lavishly published.]

(6) Moving on through the Oration, Constantine informs us that
the advent of Christ had been predicted by Virgil (70-19 BCE)
in a Latin poem, written 40 BCE, to the poet's patron Pollio.
Fox says: "Constantine cites Latin's loveliest Eclogue
to a christian audience [ED: this is DISPUTED]
for a meaning which it never had."

Constantine began with the seventh line, in a free Greek translation which changed its meaning"

p.651: Fox writes:


"Has there ever been such a sequence of misplaced discoveries in a christian sermon,
let alone in a speech at the end of a Christian [ED: DISPUTED] synod?

[Editor: The Boss is on record, in his Oration to the Saints,
for outright fraudulent misrepresentation of the literature.]

(7) One sentence of the Oration trod unwarily on Arius' ground.

[Editor: The Arian controversy arose in opposition
to the fraudulent historical claims of christianity.
The words of Arius may be interpretted as historical commentary
raised in opposition to Constantine's new god.]

Conclusion: "Men have witnessed battles and watched war in which
God's Providence granted victory to this host." God, in short, had willed
Constantine's victory in response to his piety and prayers,
the themes of which ran through history and his entire Oration ...
Philosophy and paganism were as dead as the old Assyrian cities:
Constantine had freed the East by his prayers and piety,
and before them both lay the promised future of God."

Council of Antioch: Three of the "bishops" who supported Arius refused to join concensus.

Constantine writes letter to Arius after this council finished.

Ossius, Constantine's agent presiding, interrogated each one of its paricipants privately.

[Editor: Clearly note that before the meeting at Antioch Ossius personally
interrogated each of the attendees, in a screening process to gauge support
for the implementation of the brand new (and strange) religion of Constantine.
Standard modus operandi of despots in the establishment of power.
Names and address are taken, rank and serial number if military.
City, civil position and direct supervisor if civilian, and
in either case, the gods to whom the attendee devoted their thought.

Constantine's scribes are taking it all down for future reference.
How to win friends influence people, and to levy the maximum tax.
Such pre-meeting informalities were big business, for all parties.

"War is a racket" --- Smedley Butler]


Best wishes


Pete
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:50 AM   #8
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Has any Christian apologist ever claimed that Jesus really was born on Dec. 25? Has any apologist ever said that those who question it are questioning the inerrant word of God? Has any Christian sect ever asserted that anyone who denies the Dec. 25 tradition is going to burn in hell? Does anything else that any Christian has ever said about Jesus depend on his having been born on Dec. 25?

The effort expended by some skeptics in debunking Jesus' traditional birthday strikes me as disproportionate to its relevance to any question of substance about Christian dogma.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:01 PM   #9
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My point is simply documenting situation about birth date of jesus, and part of that is history of opinions on that matter.

Most "anti-christian apologetic" someone csan get of this is claiming that even early christians had no idea when he was born, and that 25th december is mostly later 4th century idea. But that, as you have yourself pointed out, is widely accepted even by christians, so I don't see this as some argument, just pure data from history.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
Roger Pearse's excellent website contains material about the birth of Jesus by the Armenian Ananias of Shirak which appears to be using very early sources such as Polycarp
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/an...as_02_text.htm

Andrew Criddle
Thank you, even though this is later (600-650 according to tertullian.org), it has some very interesting discussion of various traditions. Too bad all those dates use some ancient calendard, hard to parse to today dates. Also, where can I find Armenian Canon?

I am especially curious about this:
Quote:
The Epiphany, according to the Romans, in the month of January, on the 6th day always.
Is it that Ananias, far from Rome, used outdated sources, or was 6th january still "big" in Rome even two centuries after Constantine? I thought 25 december became popular pretty quickly in Rome in 4th century, as the "merger" of various traditions (invictus, christ). Do you have any info on how long did 6th january tradition remain in western parts of empire, and when did 25 december rule over it?
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