Sauron

Not necessarily. It depends upon the site situation and what information they are trying to get at. If a site is especially fragile, or sits beneath an important *other* site, then they wouldnt excavate.

"As you seem to recall"? Don't you mean "as you seem to guess"?
There is no Shinar gate at Babylon. Go ahead lee - explain this one; it should be interesting.

*Ishtar*

Guessing again? Babylon is not silted up. It is sanded over.

1. Letting people know of the problem does not prevent them from living there; what a absurd and naive notion.

2. Silence? Don't make me laugh. You have no evidence of silence. You are merely asserting that. Given that archaeologists object in other places around the world - Angkor Wat, for example - your hopeful assertion runs contrary to the behavior of archaeologists.

Those are not artifacts.

Says who, lee? Is this just another assertion from your bottomless black bag of random claims?

As usual, you don't know jack shit about the topic so you make up a claim. For your information, pot shards are so common - esp. in the Mideast - that I doubt seriously than any market exists at all for buying/selling them. Of course, you've claimed here that a market does exist. Let's see you prove it.

Oh, wait - who am I kidding? :rolling:

No reluctance, no balking. The prophecy has already failed. And since there is no evidence that christians would reject their religion Babylon was rebuilt, then skeptics have no motivation try.

3. And in the case of skeptics -- the Babylon prophecy failed for 8 or 9 other reasons. The facts show that the Isaiah prophecy has ALREADY been invalidated by PAST events. That is why nobody should spend a dime to rebuild Babylon: the disproof happened in 539 BCE, when the city peacefully changed hands to the Persians, contrary to prophecy. Multiple other disproofs happened over the following centuries.

I wouldn't spend any time or money proving that Paris was the capital of France, either.

Here's a question for you, though: why don't you get some money together and try rebuilding Babylon yourself? That way when it fails, you can come back and say "I told you so."

1. Alexander did not die of a fever in his attempt. You've been told several times that there is no evidence for that; why do you act dishonestly and repeat the claim anyhow?

2. Saddam's work at Babylon was finished years ago. He stopped work on the project and focused on other items. Events in Iraq did not prevent him from finishing anything; he had already finished the planned work he had in mind for Babylon long before the war.

pharoah

The Bible itself seems to refute the notion that Babylon was never rebuilt.

1 Peter 5 (New International Version)

12With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it. 13She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark. 14Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

John A. Broussard

You underestimate lee.

Either she was living in a tent

or

The reference is to a little known town in North Africa

or

Babylon refers to confusion (derived from the tower of Babel) and this is a way of saying she's bonkers

or

It was the wrong postmark on the letter.

Johnny Skeptic

As I basically said is another post, "But were Alexander and Saddam trying rebuild Babylon in order to try to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babyon? If so, then where is your evidence? In not, then your "people have a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible anytime that they want to by rebuilding Babylon" argument just flew right out of the window.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

By which I primarily meant rebuilding! Others can tell me to be a claimant for other aspects, but this is moving the goalposts, these other questions were not part of the debate topic in the original post.

Well, have you done a survey? Which Muslims have you asked? How do you know they would not be interested, if they learned about this possibility?

Why would doing what Scripture says cannot be done not shake the faith of many Christians, though? Why would no people be convinced? Why are your other arguments better than this?

Certainly I don't know. How many people would be convinced to give up Christianity, if you win the argument in the thread about the Isaiah prophecy? Do you have some numbers?

That would be fine...

My main aim here is to simply get the attempt made, though, with the full knowledge that this would overturn a clear prediction. Then we will see what happens, as a result.

It's actually rather rare, in my experience, or people would change their views in these forums more often. I must say, I have seen precious few examples of someone saying "What a great argument! I shall change my view."

I actually don't set out to convince them, I have no such agenda. If I did, and had a good opportunity with clear evidence, to convince those who really wanted to know, I agree that I should take it if I could, in order to be consistent.

Well yes, that is what I meant, and thus the only parts that are sure are the ones in the Qur'an, which does not have the prophecy about Babylon never being rebuilt. But the skeptics do not have even this consideration.

But this is not in your power, though rebuilding a city is, these predictions are quite different.

Commentators I have read take this to be a descriptive label, not a geographical one, as here:

"'Babylon' could be (1) in Mesopotamia, (2) a town in Egypt, or (3) a cryptic reference to Rome. The last view is best because (1) according to early church tradition Peter was in Rome; (2) there is no evidence for Peter's having been in Egypt or Mesopotamia; and (3) the reference may be cryptic because of persecution, or it may be an allusion to the 'exile' of God's people on the pattern of the exile of ancient Israel in Babylon." (Expositor's Bible Commentary)

And as illustrated by this example:

Isaiah 1:9-10 Unless the Lord Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

No, but the point is that they were well equipped to succeed! Only they didn't, thus this should have been done, and yet these attempts have failed, twice. That we know of...

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

It doesn’t matter what you meant. Arabs pitching their tents is part of Isaiah 13:20, and you once said that you had added the verse to your list of pertinent Scriptures regarding the Babylon prophecy.

As I just showed, it IS NOT moving the goalposts since you yourself said that Isaiah 13:20 IS pertinent to the overall prophecy.

Which Muslims have YOU asked? You have said on numerous occasions that Muslims have a golden opportunity to disprove the Bible anytime that they want to by rebuilding Babylon, but you haven’t produced even one single Muslim who makes such a claim. The Muslim that you did contact told you that Muslims DO NOT want to rebuild Babylon, and that if the Old Testament said that Babylon would not be rebuilt, that he held that to be true. In other words, HE WAS AGREEING WITH YOU THAT THE PROPHECY IS VALID.

Because most Christians have better sense than you do. My gracious, Lee. You have admitted that your position is a minority position EVEN AMONG FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS, have you not? Why are you asking me? Why don’t you let Christians speak for themselves? So far, you haven’t produced even one single Christian who says that they will give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, but I could easily produce one hundred Christians from FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN CHURCHES who WOULD NOT GIVE UP CHRISTIANITY if Babylon were to be rebuilt. I will produce the Christians if you will concede defeat. How about it, Lee?

Although I can’t speak for Christians, I can speak for virtually all skeptics who maintain that rebuilding Babylon would not produce substantially beneficial results for skeptics. I will produce one hundred skeptics who agree with me if you will concede defeat. How about it Lee? I am always willing to back up what I claim with testimonies from Christians, Muslims and skeptics if necessary, but you are never willing to back up what you claim with testimonies from Christians, Muslims and skeptics. Why is that? Sauron was right. You makes lots of assertions, but you frequently do not provide ANY evidence that supports your assertions. You attempt to speak for Christians, Muslims, and skeptics, BUT YOU NEVER PROVIDE ANY CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, AND SKEPTICS THAT AGREE WITH YOUR ABSURD NOTIONS.

Who said no people? It is quite easy to prove who is right. You produce twenty-five fundamentalist Christians who will give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, and I will produce twenty-five fundamentalist Christians who will not give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt. It would be unnecessary to ask liberal Christians because virtually none of them would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt.

You still haven’t learned that I will not become the claimant. I assure you that your attempts at such trickery will never work. As the claimant you said that some people might be convinced, but so far you haven’t produced even one single person who would be convinced.

If I do so and most of the pastors state that they will not give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, will you concede defeat? If so, I assure you that I will contact a good number of pastors at fundamentalist Christian churches. If not, then your reluctance would prove that you don’t want to embarrass yourself anymore than you already have.

The point is, would rebuilding Babylon produce substantially beneficial results for Muslims and skeptics? If so, then where is your evidence? If not, then there would be no reason for anyone to accept your challenge.

But you haven’t provided any great arguments. A sizeable majority of the people in the world oppose murder, theft and lying, and a sizeable majority of the people in the world have also rejected Christianity. How do you account for the fact that a sizeable majority of the people in the world who have heard the Gospel message have rejected Christianity? The followers of many religions believe in intelligent design and miracles. As an agnostic, I do not rule out a reasonable possibility of intelligent design. I do not object to divine oversight as long as it is reasonable. I do not object to a loving God healing people, although is no evidence that a loving God does heal people, and there IS evidence that God allowed Hurricane Katrina to primarily attack Southern Bible Belt states where the largest numbers of fundamentalist Christians live. In typical fashion, God enabled rich people to be better able to deal with the hurricane than poor people.

Now you’ve got it, Lee. Congratulations. Muslims and skeptics have no agenda to rebuild Babylon. The members of the Flat Earth Society maintain that you should have an agenda to prove that the earth is round, and that you are missing a golden opportunity to prove that the earth is round. In your typical dictatorial fashion, you insist on who must take advantage of which golden opportunities in order to prove their arguments. That won’t work.

The members of the Flat Earth society really do want to know, and they have said so on numerous occasions, and you claimed that you do have clear evidence, namely photos of the earth taken from outer space, but the members of the Flat Earth Society “flatly� reject your evidence. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the number of members in the Flat Earth Society is larger than the number of Christians who would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt. Would you?

What in the world are you talking about? Well of course the Qur’an has nothing to do with skeptics. The Muslim that you contacted told you that if the Old Testament said that Babylon would not be rebuilt, that he holds that to be true. Even if Muslims did not hold the prophecy to be true, they believe that if Babylon were to be rebuilt, for all practical purposes the Christian Church would still be just as large as it is today, and that U.S. foreign policy would still be exactly the same as it is today. Do you dispute this? If so, where is your evidence?

Johnny: As I basically said is another post, "But were Alexander and Saddam trying rebuild Babylon in order to try to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babyon?"

That is your assessment, but can you produce a few reputable historians who agree with your attempt at cause and correlation? In debates between well-known Christians and well-known skeptics, and between lay Christians and lay skeptics as well, it is common for both sides to back up their assertions with corroboration from expert sources. What do you have against backing up your assertions with corroboration from expert sources, and regarding the Babylon prophecy with corroboration from laymen as well?

I have a thread at this forum titled ‘Apologists assume too much about the nature of God.’ My most recent post is the same as my opening post in my thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum titled ‘I can concede the Resurrection and still invalidate Christianity.’ I reasonably prove to rational minded people that even if Jesus did rise from the dead, there are not any good reasons at all for anyone to become a Christian.

Your favorite debate topics are Bible prophecies. My arguments in those threads also apply to Bible prophecy. In other words, even if all Bible prophecies were divinely inspired and came true, there is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and the goodness of God. Deuteronomy 13:1-2 say “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them.� So, even by the Bible’s own admission, some bad people can predict the future too. I suggest that you visit one of the threads that I mentioned and you will see for yourself that my arguments are difficult for Christians to deal with.

I have a friend who is a local college professor. He has two masters degrees, one in philosophy and one in humanities. He has an IQ of 173, and he scored 1560 on the SAT, including a perfect score in the verbal portion. He agrees with me that the very best arguments against Christianity are not disputing the Resurrection or Bible prophecy, but rather disputing the nature of God. I have found out from personal experience in a number of debates with Christians at the Theology Web and here at the Secular Web that the apologist is at a loss to adequately defend the nature of God. Give it a try at one of the threads that I mentioned and see for yourself. I predict that you won’t because you don’t want to embarrass yourself.

Johnny Skeptic

I predict that Lee Merrill will soon withdraw from this thread formally, or that he will leave without making a formal withdrawal. Comments anyone?

badger3k

I've been busy getting used to working 11-hour night shifts again, so I haven't been online these last few weeks, but I think this is probably right. It seems to fit the pattern he follows, from the few threads we have been in together.

I said it before, but I'll repeat myself - good job guys! :thumbs:

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

I said I would...

Well, no, because the debate was not about that topic.

Then may I ask, why are you trying to disprove a prophecy in Isaiah, in another thread to show that the prediction was incorrect? Rebuilding Babylon would be much clearer.

I have actually withdrawn any claims as to what people will think! You, on the other hand, have made some definite claims, and I am wondering how you support them. But all this is still incidental to the chosen topic.

Well, you did!

Well, my question was different, I was asking why the other arguments you have been making (especially about invalid prophecy) are better than rebuilding Babylon.

Certainly not, if such folks think they are wasting their time in arguing against other prophecies, saying they were not fulfilled, and were therefore invalid. I had gathered from the three month long attempt to refute the prophecy about Tyre (Badger will no doubt remember this, as you will too, Johnny, from the similar long thread over at Tweb), that there was some perceived benefit to winning that argument.

Well, that's a different topic! This was predicted, by the way, "only a remnant." Yet have you seen many examples of people saying "I'm convinced! I shall now adopt your view"? Most people do not really seem to be looking for truth, they are looking instead for reasons to maintain their view.

I think we may doubt their sincerity, at this point, a chartered jet around the world would also be rather firm evidence. A phone call to China, to ask the position of the sun! If cost was a factor.

I don't recall that he said that, but I think he would subscribe to that view. I would consider his view unusual, for he also said the list of 101 contradictions from a Muslim web site were not to be considered effective questions to raise about the Bible.

A world-wide empire at the height of its power should be able to build a capital! From this site: "In 331, the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great, who was fighting a war against the Persians, captured Babylon. Later, he intended to make the city his residence, and he ordered several building projects, like a large river port, a theater, and a reconstruction of the Etemenanki."

Presumably his order implies that at least he thought he had the ability to carry it out, as does Saddam's stated intent to rebuild this city.

Your turn for some references!

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard

Answer from lee:
You also said you'd produce one or more witnesses of a miraculous growth of fingers that were missing. You didn't.

Will this be yet another unfullfilled promise?