Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Captain Howdy · 11-22-2005, 06:59 PM

Yesterday in my church and ecumenism class, the professor stated that two non christian scholars recorded the death of Jesus, thus proving his historicity.

According to him they are:

Suetonius, of whom I have never heard

And Pliny the younger, who supposedly recorded the crucifixion of a man named Chrestus

I don't really buy it, and I don't exactly know where to look for accurate info.

What do you think?

Godless Wonder · 11-22-2005, 07:04 PM

See: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...er/hojfaq.html

if you haven't already. It mentions both of them.

11-22-2005, 07:17 PM

Greetings,

Your first port of call for such things is
"Early Christian Writings" web site,
a modern masterpiece.

Both these writers are discussed there :

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/pliny.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/suetonius.html

(Of course, these 2 writers are not actually Christians themselves, Peter Kirby has included them for completeness.)

In short -

Pliny (younger), 80 years or so after Jesus, mentions Christians who worship a "Christ".

Suetonius, about the same time, mentions a "Chrestus" (not an uncommon name) who caused disturbance in Rome in the 60s - probably not Jesus at all.

Neither of them refer to the crucifixion.

Neither of them refer to "Jesus" by name.

Sadly, as in this case, apologists claims about the historicity of Jesus often turn out to be false.

You might like to refer to my site for early references (or not) to Jesus :

http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...lyWriters.html

Iasion

Secular Pinoy · 11-22-2005, 08:09 PM

Catholic school, eh? I wish I could go back to my Catholic school days and set them straight. But then, I might get a failing mark!

Captain Howdy · 11-24-2005, 03:24 AM

Worse, Catholic College, remember? I got Kicked out. Well I wrote an essay and accidentally fucked my facts up a little. Thanks for the help.

So there was no historical jesus eh? I knew it.

Fucking idiots

Chris Weimer · 11-24-2005, 03:31 AM

There may have been an historical Jesus. Frankly, I don't think we'll ever be certain how much of the NT comes from him, if any at all. I think we can date some traditions as going back to the earliest Christians, but no further than that.

Secular Pinoy · 11-24-2005, 03:37 AM

I've always assumed, though without much definitive evidence, agnosticism but leaning towards historicity of a Jesus-like character.

11-22-2005, 06:59 PM	#1
Captain Howdy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 562	A Historical Jesus...? Yesterday in my church and ecumenism class, the professor stated that two non christian scholars recorded the death of Jesus, thus proving his historicity. According to him they are: Suetonius, of whom I have never heard And Pliny the younger, who supposedly recorded the crucifixion of a man named Chrestus I don't really buy it, and I don't exactly know where to look for accurate info. What do you think?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-22-2005, 07:04 PM	#2
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	See: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...er/hojfaq.html if you haven't already. It mentions both of them.

11-22-2005, 07:17 PM	#3
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	Greetings, Your first port of call for such things is "Early Christian Writings" web site, a modern masterpiece. Both these writers are discussed there : http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/pliny.html http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/suetonius.html (Of course, these 2 writers are not actually Christians themselves, Peter Kirby has included them for completeness.) In short - Pliny (younger), 80 years or so after Jesus, mentions Christians who worship a "Christ". Suetonius, about the same time, mentions a "Chrestus" (not an uncommon name) who caused disturbance in Rome in the 60s - probably not Jesus at all. Neither of them refer to the crucifixion. Neither of them refer to "Jesus" by name. Sadly, as in this case, apologists claims about the historicity of Jesus often turn out to be false. You might like to refer to my site for early references (or not) to Jesus : http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...lyWriters.html Iasion

11-22-2005, 08:09 PM	#4
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	Catholic school, eh? I wish I could go back to my Catholic school days and set them straight. But then, I might get a failing mark!

11-24-2005, 03:24 AM	#5
Captain Howdy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 562	Worse, Catholic College, remember? I got Kicked out. Well I wrote an essay and accidentally fucked my facts up a little. Thanks for the help. So there was no historical jesus eh? I knew it. Fucking idiots

11-24-2005, 03:31 AM	#6
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	There may have been an historical Jesus. Frankly, I don't think we'll ever be certain how much of the NT comes from him, if any at all. I think we can date some traditions as going back to the earliest Christians, but no further than that.

11-24-2005, 03:37 AM	#7
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	I've always assumed, though without much definitive evidence, agnosticism but leaning towards historicity of a Jesus-like character.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.