Doug Shaver

Not as I read them.

Ben C Smith

Same verse: The first Adam was what? A soul. See my post to Steven Carr.

Ben.

dog-on

Is the word "living soul" a better translation than "living being" and isn't the key word in that phrase the word "living"?

Is the term "life-giving" an accurate translation?

The phrase "living soul" usually refers to a person, "life-giving spirit" never does...

Chili

I would argue that Adam was not a man but a human with a soul. The name Adam was given to man after the fall of man (Adam where are you? in Gen.3), to isolate the ego consciousness that is made known by the shame-no shame distinction between Gen.2:25 where man was nake to wit and felt no shame and here in Gen.3:10 where man knew he was naked and did feel shame.

So man does not have a soul while Adam does have a soul which really is the TOL where man as created in the image of God exists while the Adam or ego identity was created in the T0L by the imagination of the TOK upon the persuasion of the woman who saw that the TOK was good for gaining power wealth and beauty (after God placed a 'dam' before man with the "thou shalt not . . .)." The ego or Adam identity is banned from Eden (TOL) to gain a better perspective of the TOL but will remain an outsider until this ego is crucified and raised again inside the TOL to which the TOK is added in a subservient position.

So is Paul right in saying that Adam is a living soul? Yes, as long as we understand that life belongs tot the soul but Adam is not part of the soul and is not in charge of the soul but only thinks that he is in charge of his own destiny while in fact he lives beside himself.

Again, humans have a soul but man (as in fully man) does not have a soul but used to have a soul. So the redemption of man is to be reborn into the conscious mind now with access to the soul (or T0L, whence came the woman) and slowly but surely take up residence in the TOL.

Is it physical? Yes, but only to the extent that the essence is changed to reverse our banisment from what they called Eden and that leads to the transformation of the body.

Chili

Person refers to persona and that is not the man but the individual idenity of each man.

dog-on

hehehe :Cheeky:

Chili

So yes, but the "life giving spirit" can only be life giving if the persona is estranged from the source of life (I like 'oblivion' here to say that he hasn't got a fucking clue while beating his own chest, the idiot).

Ben C Smith

If by better you mean more literal, then yes, soul [ψυχη] is the word used.

I think every word is key in this verse, and that is not just a hollow platitude. Virtually very element in the first phrase (which is from Genesis 2.7) is balanced by an element in the second phrase (which Paul himself composed). Thus the first man Adam is balanced by last Adam; soul is balanced by spirit; living is balanced by lifegiving (even more literally, lifemaking).

Actually, in the LXX it more commonly refers to animals (Genesis 1.20, 24; 2.19; 9.12, 15, 16; Leviticus 11.10).

On what kind of data search is this never based?

Ben.

Clivedurdle

Jacob and the Angel (sculpture of Jacob wrestling with an angel


Can we take this step by step very carefully please.

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewW...&searchid=9131

What is wrestling with what here? Which bits are alive, where are the souls, where are the spirits?

What difference does it make if animals are involved?

How might the beliefs about this have changed between Genesis and Paul?

Was Paul introducing new ideas given to him by revelation? What is a life making Spirit? Why might the new Adam be one? Was not Jehovah one?

Is the new Adam Jehovah?

Is Paul introducing an idea that Christ has converted us from animals to gods?

Steven Carr

Paul is quoting Genesis 2:9 where Adam has 'psyche' (which you are translating as soul) breathed into him.

Having 'psyche' breathed into dead matter made the dead matter live.

Paul contrasts the Genesis account of God making dead matter live (by adding psyche to the dead matter), with what happened to Jesus.

Paul says that human beings consist of soma, psyche and pneuma.

Presumably 'psyche' (or soul) is not something humans consist of.