Freethought & Rationalism Archive

la70119 · 02-01-2012, 11:54 PM

Well, we all know it's an obvious fiction and what it says about the Crucifixion reflects what Justin Martyr (I Apology 35) tells us what happened. gPeter is probably what JM called The Memoirs of Peter. Nevertheless it's an obvious fiction because of the name of the centurion sent to supervise the guarding of the tomb matches that of an author who wrote a bawdy story about a romance between a widow and a Roman soldier who ordered to guard some crucified criminals.

Gospel of Peter 28-48 (Link)

Quote:

But the scribes and Pharisees and elders... came before Pilate, begging him and saying, 'Give over soldiers to us in order that we may safeguard his burial place for three days, lest, having come, his disciples steal him, and the people accept that he is risen from the death, and they do us wrong.' But Pilate gave over to them Petronius the centurion with soldiers to safeguard the sepulcher....

But in the night in which the Lord's day dawned, when the soldiers were safeguarding it... two males who had much radiance had come down from there [heaven] and come near the sepulcher. But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered. And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding). And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them,....

....Having seen these things, those around the centurion hastened at night before Pilate (having left the sepulcher which they were safeguarding) and described all the things that they indeed had seen, agonizing greatly and saying: 'Truly he was God's Son.'

In answer Pilate said: 'I am clean of the blood of the Son of God, but it was to you that this seemed [the thing to do].'

Then all, having come forward, were begging and exhorting him to command the centurion and the soldiers to say to no one what they had seen.

'For,' they said, 'it is better for us to owe the debt of the greatest sin in the sight of God than to fall into the hands of the Jewish people and be stoned.' And so Pilate ordered the centurion and the soldiers to say nothing.

Petronius Satyricon 111, 112 (Link)

Quote:

At this moment the governor of the province gave orders that some robbers should be crucified near the small building where the lady was bewailing her recent loss. So on the next night when the soldier was watching the crosses to prevent anyone from taking down a body for burial, he observed a light shining plainly among the tombs....

The parents of one of the crucified, seeing the watch was ill-kept, took their man down in the dark and administered their last rite to him. The soldier was eluded while he was off-duty and the next day, seeing one of the crosses without its corpse, he was in terror of punishment, and explained to the lady what happened. He declared he would not wait for a court-martial, but would punish his own neglect with a thrust of his sword.... ...'Heaven forbid', she replied, 'that I should look at the same moment on the two bodies of two men whom I love. No, I would rather make a dead man useful, than send a man live to his death'. After this speech she ordered her husband's body to be taken out of the coffin and fixed up on the empty cross. The soldier availed himself of this far-seeing woman's device, and the people wondered the next day by what means the dead man had ascended the cross!

Where did the Christians get their ideas from? :devil1:

Toto · 02-02-2012, 12:41 AM

Robert M Price has spoken and written at length on comparisons between the gospel stories and acts, both canonical and non-canonical, and Hellenistic Romances.

link 1

Quote:

It seems to be universally acknowledged among scholars that the Apocryphal Acts of the Apostles owe much in the way of both inspiration and form to the Hellenistic romances. [1] Basically it seems that early Christians indulged a guilty pleasure in reading the novels and were eventually motivated to write their own safe, sanitized versions in the form of the Apocryphal Acts. ...

***

1. Elizabeth Hazelton Haight, More Essays on Ancient Fiction (NY: Longmans, Green and Co., 1945), 48; Ben Edward Perry, The Ancient Romances, A Literary-Historical Account of Their Origins (Berkeley: U. of California Press, 1967), 31-32; Thomas Hagg, The Novel in Antiquity (Berkeley: U. of California Press, 1983), 160-161 (though both Perry and Thomas are loathe to say that the Acts simply evolved from the novels or that they can be considered Christianized novels; still neither denies some connection or influence); Arthur Heiserman, The Novel Before the Novel, Essays and Discussions about the beginnings of Prose Fiction in the West* (Chicago: U. of Chicago Press, 1977), 205; B.P. Reardon, "General Introduction" to Reardon (ed.) Collected Ancient Greek Novels (Berkeley: U. of California Press, 1989), 3; W. Schneemelcher and K. Schaferdiek, "Second and Third Century Acts of Apostles, Introduction" in Edgar Hennecke and Wilhelm Schneemelcher (eds.) New Testament Apocrypha, Vol. 2 (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1965), 176; Rosa Soder, Die apokryphen Apostelgeschichten und die romanhafte Literatur der Antique (Stuttgart: W. Kohlhammer Verlag, 1932), 148, quoted in Stevan L. Davies, The Revolt of the Widows, The Social World of the Apocryphal Acts (Carbondale: Southern Illinois U. P., 1980), 85; Virginia Burrus, Chastity as Autonomy, Women in the Stories of Apocryphal Acts (Lewiston: Edwin Mellon Press, 1987), 58, sees the connection as between common folklore sources, not direct literary dependence between the two genres.

stephan huller · 02-02-2012, 01:46 AM

I am not sure the parallels are that strong. Indeed the stronger argument might be that Petronius was making fun of the gospel. How or why the evangelist(s) would find inspiration in this narrative is baffling.

andrewcriddle · 02-02-2012, 11:45 AM

Some have linked Petronius in the Gospel of Peter to Publius_Petronius governor of Syria in the time of Caligula.

Andrew Criddle

PhilosopherJay · 02-02-2012, 03:21 PM

It is curious that apparently one of the robbers was taken down from the cross on the third day by his relatives. Likewise, we can say that the widow's husband rose from the dead onto the cross on the third day after the robber was crucified.

Quote:

At this moment the governor of the province gave orders that some robbers should be crucified near the small building where the lady was bewailing her recent loss. So on the next night, when the soldier who was watching the crosses, to prevent anyone taking down a body for burial, observed a light shining plainly among the tombs, and heard a mourner's groans, a very human weakness made him curious to know who it was and what he was doing. So he went down into the vault,

The lady ceased to hold out, and the conquering hero won her over entire. [B]So they passed not only their wedding night together, but the next and a third[/B], of course shutting the door of the vault, so that any friend or stranger who came to the tomb would imagine that this most virtuous lady had breathed her last over her husband's body. Well, the[p. 235] soldier was delighted with the woman's beauty, and his stolen pleasure; he bought up all the fine things his means permitted, and carried them to the tomb the moment darkness fell. So the parents of one of the crucified, seeing that the watch was ill kept, took their man down in the dark and administered the last rite to him. The soldier was eluded while he was off duty, and next day, seeing one of the crosses without its corpse, he was in terror of punishment, and explained to the lady what had happened. He declared that he would not wait for a court-martial, but would punish his own neglect with a thrust of his sword. So she had better get ready a place for a dying man, and let the gloomy vault enclose both her husband and her lover. The lady's heart was tender as well as pure. 'Heaven forbid,' she replied, 'that I should look at the same moment on the dead bodies of two men whom I love. No, I would rather make a dead man useful, than send a live man to death.' After this speech she ordered her husband's body to be taken out of the coffin and fixed up on the empty cross. The soldier availed himself of this far-seeing woman's device, and the people wondered the next day by what means the dead man had ascended the cross.”

The name Petronius may have been derived from the Greek word "Petros" meaning rock, so essentially Petronius and Peter are the same name.

It is hard to see how Petronius' text could derive from the Jesus Crucifixion story. It does not seems to be referring to it styllistically or making any point about it at all.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

stephan huller · 02-02-2012, 03:50 PM

The other interpretation is that Petronius was Nero's 'arbiter of elegance'

la70119 · 02-02-2012, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am not sure the parallels are that strong. Indeed the stronger argument might be that Petronius was making fun of the gospel. How or why the evangelist(s) would find inspiration in this narrative is baffling.

Except the author of Satyricon, Gaius Petronius Arbiter (ca. 27–66 AD) likely never even heard of the gospels; for there is zero evidence that gPeter or even its predecessor, gCross was written before Satyricon. In fact, a near-verbatim quote in Justin Martyr's I Apology 35 seems to indicate it could have been a second-century work.

la70119 · 02-02-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

It is curious that apparently one of the robbers was taken down from the cross on the third day by his relatives. Likewise, we can say that the widow's husband rose from the dead onto the cross on the third day after the robber was crucified.

Quote:

At this moment the governor of the province gave orders that some robbers should be crucified near the small building where the lady was bewailing her recent loss. So on the next night, when the soldier who was watching the crosses, to prevent anyone taking down a body for burial, observed a light shining plainly among the tombs, and heard a mourner's groans, a very human weakness made him curious to know who it was and what he was doing. So he went down into the vault,

The lady ceased to hold out, and the conquering hero won her over entire. [B]So they passed not only their wedding night together, but the next and a third[/B], of course shutting the door of the vault, so that any friend or stranger who came to the tomb would imagine that this most virtuous lady had breathed her last over her husband's body. Well, the[p. 235] soldier was delighted with the woman's beauty, and his stolen pleasure; he bought up all the fine things his means permitted, and carried them to the tomb the moment darkness fell. So the parents of one of the crucified, seeing that the watch was ill kept, took their man down in the dark and administered the last rite to him. The soldier was eluded while he was off duty, and next day, seeing one of the crosses without its corpse, he was in terror of punishment, and explained to the lady what had happened. He declared that he would not wait for a court-martial, but would punish his own neglect with a thrust of his sword. So she had better get ready a place for a dying man, and let the gloomy vault enclose both her husband and her lover. The lady's heart was tender as well as pure. 'Heaven forbid,' she replied, 'that I should look at the same moment on the dead bodies of two men whom I love. No, I would rather make a dead man useful, than send a live man to death.' After this speech she ordered her husband's body to be taken out of the coffin and fixed up on the empty cross. The soldier availed himself of this far-seeing woman's device, and the people wondered the next day by what means the dead man had ascended the cross.”

The name Petronius may have been derived from the Greek word "Petros" meaning rock, so essentially Petronius and Peter are the same name.

It is hard to see how Petronius' text could derive from the Jesus Crucifixion story. It does not seems to be referring to it styllistically or making any point about it at all.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Exactly!

andrewcriddle · 02-04-2012, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am not sure the parallels are that strong. Indeed the stronger argument might be that Petronius was making fun of the gospel. How or why the evangelist(s) would find inspiration in this narrative is baffling.

Except the author of Satyricon, Gaius Petronius Arbiter (ca. 27–66 AD) likely never even heard of the gospels; for there is zero evidence that gPeter or even its predecessor, gCross was written before Satyricon. In fact, a near-verbatim quote in Justin Martyr's I Apology 35 seems to indicate it could have been a second-century work.

gCross (Crossan's 'Cross Gospel') is a hypothetical entity. Many scholars doubt whether it existed.

Andrew Criddle

la70119 · 02-04-2012, 05:31 AM

Andrew Criddle,

You're probably right about gCross, since archaeologists never dug up a payrus with something similar to gPeter, but more primitive.

But it still doesn't detract from the likelihood that many details were kyped from Petronius' Satiricon. Even the centurion who directed the crucifixion or at least the guarding of the tomb has the same name as the author!

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02-02-2012, 01:46 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am not sure the parallels are that strong. Indeed the stronger argument might be that Petronius was making fun of the gospel. How or why the evangelist(s) would find inspiration in this narrative is baffling.

02-02-2012, 11:45 AM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Some have linked Petronius in the Gospel of Peter to Publius_Petronius governor of Syria in the time of Caligula. Andrew Criddle

02-02-2012, 03:50 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The other interpretation is that Petronius was Nero's 'arbiter of elegance'

02-04-2012, 05:31 AM	#10
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Andrew Criddle, You're probably right about gCross, since archaeologists never dug up a payrus with something similar to gPeter, but more primitive. But it still doesn't detract from the likelihood that many details were kyped from Petronius' Satiricon. Even the centurion who directed the crucifixion or at least the guarding of the tomb has the same name as the author!

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