Peter Kirby

I figure that people stopped wading through the other FAQ thread because it looked like I was merrily chugging along with new (lengthy) revisions and that they would only be disturbing my work...(actually I am not sure why it's gotten a pathetic response)...

So I would like to start fresh with a "FAQ Writing Challenge". This thread has all the elements of success, such as the words "challenge" and the phrase "historicity of Jesus."

The problem is to write a FAQ-style document, and in particular to cover "the historicity of Jesus" as part of that document, using language that seems to reflect the consensus of the IIDB participants, to the extent that there is one, and which notes various facts.

To take up this challenge, please submit text for one of the three areas, or open up another subsection to go under "The Historicity of Jesus".

(#0) What does "the historicity of Jesus" mean?

(#1) What are the arguments against the historicity of Jesus?

(#2) What are the arguments for the historicity of Jesus?

(#3) **insert your own question and answer here**

Thank you for your participation; my hope is that we can make the construction of the FAQ a community effort.

I would also like at least one co-maintainer for the IIDB BC&H FAQ, so that my editorial decisions are not purely autocratic.

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

mountainman

I am prepared to follow up an earlier request to form a
comparitive historicity of Jesus and Apollonius of Tyana.

As you are aware this will consist of dual column notes
according to the criteria outlined by Richard Carrier,
unless you know of any better ones.

Accordingly, the historicity of Jesus may be perceived
in its exclusion in the same presentation, simply by
ignoring the data on Apollonius of Tyana (ie: so
what's new?)



Pete Brown

mountainman

Do the HJ crew have a problem with Carrier's criteria of historicity?
Isn't it obvious in advance that an objective period of research into
the issue of historicity will not do the HJ postulate any good?

WORKSHEET: Assessment of historicity.

AUTHOR 01: Jesus Christ (A1)
==========================

TEMPLATE 01: CARRIER, R.

CRITERIA 01:
Description: Were these people an author of writings?

CRITERIA 02:
Were they a subject of biographies or hagiographies?

CRITERIA 03:
Description: Are there inscriptions, coins, statues or other
physical archeological evidence to substantiate their existence?

CRITERIA 04:
Description: Are they the subject of, or mentioned by extant historians?

CRITERIA 05:
Description: Are they the subject of, or mentioned by extant writers?

WEIGHTING: Equal 20 points each.

==========================

A1:C1 - Eusebius claims A1 wrote a letter to King Agbar, and nothing else. (1 point)

A1:C2 - Massive hagiographies evident besides the canonical four. Many extant (eg: gJudas,gThomas).
However the chronology for all hagiographies, and the only extant historiology of the texts
are provided for by Eusebius, in the fourth century, c.312 (Constantine takes Rome). (12 points)

A1:C3 - We will allow the one true cross of Helena, but Zero preNicene evidence - (1 point)

A1:C4 - Josephus - Fraudulent misrepresentation (0 points)

A1:C5 - On the basis that the synoptics are by "extant writers" (a view which
it not widely held) we might allocate a few points, but the integrity of the
texts and their descent and chronology cannot be determined, so some points
cannot be allocated. (7 points)

==================================

MEASURE of TOTAL HISTORICITY

A1 = 1/20 + 12/20 + 1/20 + 0/20 + 7/20 = 21%

==================================


As you can see this has absolutely no relational meaning
unless the same criteria are worked through other authors
of antiquity besides the author Jesus.

It is only when all the different authors are perceived in
a relative light, after all being assessed by the same categories
and weightings, that the relative authenticities will be
automatically highlighted by the results.


Pete Brown

GakuseiDon

(#0) What does "the historicity of Jesus" mean?

The person who existed at some point in time and was the inspiration for the writings of Paul and the Gospel stories.

(#1) What are the arguments against the historicity of Jesus?

Sparcity of early references to Jesus in non-Christian literature
Paul's lack of details with regards to a historical person

(#2) What are the arguments for the historicity of Jesus?

The NT itself
References in Josephus
Reference by Tacitus

(#3) **insert your own question and answer here**

How does the evidence for Jesus match that for other historical characters from that time?
How does the evidence for Jesus match that for literary/fictional characters from that time?