Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 10-06-2011, 02:19 PM

I had run across this name when I was doing work on the Acts of Archelaus. However I had no idea (or forgot) that he is supposed to have been alive at the time of the apostles. Here is the Wikipedia article. Any thoughts? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythianus

Quote:

Scythianus [1] was a supposed Alexandrian religious teacher who visited India around 50 CE. He is mentioned by several Christian writers and anti-Manichaean polemicists of the 3rd and 4th centuries CE, including Cyril of Jerusalem, Hippolytus and Epiphanius, and is first mentioned in the fourth-century work, Acta Archelai, a critical biography of Mani from an orthodox perspective. Scythianus is thought to have lived near the border between Palestine and Arabia, and to have been active in trade between the Red Sea ports and India.

Hippolytus considered Scythianus as a predecessor of Mani, and wrote that he brought, before Mani, "the doctrine of the Two Principles" from India[2]. According to Epiphanius, he was apparently trying to propagate the view "that there is something beyond the one who exists and that, so to speak, the activity of all things comes from two roots or two principles". Epiphanius further explained that Scythianus wrote four books: Mysteries, Treasure, Summaries , and a Gospel (the "Gospel of Scythianus", also mentioned by Cyril of Jerusalem). Scythianus is said to have been to Jerusalem, where he disputed his doctrines with the Apostles[citation needed].

The account of Cyril of Jerusalem states that after Scythianus' death, his pupil Terebinthus went to Palestine and Judaea ("becoming known and condemned in Judaea") and Babylon. He used the name 'Buddas', which could mean he presented himself as a Buddha and may suggest a link between his philosophy and Buddhism [3]. Terebinthus brought with him the books of Scythianus, which he presented upon his death to his lodger, a widow with a slave named Cubricus, who later changed his name to Mani (from "Manes" in Persian, meaning "discourse"). Mani is said to have studied the books, which thereby become the source of Manichean doctrine [4]

PhilosopherJay · 10-06-2011, 08:25 PM

Wikipedia gives dates for Mani of 216-276. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_%28prophet%29). Scythianus, the story goes in the Acta Archelai had only one disciple named Terebinthus who wrote four books. It says that the widow who inherited Terebinthus' works bought Mani when he was seven. That would be 223 C.E. Scythianus logically must have died a relatively short time before that, circa 200 CE. That would preclude him being in India in 50 C.E.

Somebody has their stories mixed up.

Apparently a wooden chest fulled with Mani's works were discovered in bad condition in 1929 in Egypt. Being in ancient coptic, translation has been a bit tardy. Much of it was apparently translated into German. Some of it has been translated into English (By Iain Gardner. Pp. xli + 307. (Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies, 37.) Leiden: Brill, 1995. ISBN 90 04 1 0248 5. Gld 170/$97.25 )

stephan huller · 10-06-2011, 08:29 PM

I have been thinking about this all day and can't help but feel there is some connection with Marcion as Pontus is inevitably associated with the Scythians. The first words of Against Marcion portray the Marcionites as Scythians who supposedly inhabit Pontus:

Quote:

The sea called Euxine, or hospitable, is belied by its nature and put to ridicule by its name. Even its situation would prevent you from reckoning Pontus hospitable: as though ashamed of its own barbarism it has set itself at a distance from our more civilized waters. Strange tribes inhabit it—if indeed living in a wagon can be called inhabiting. These have no certain dwelling-place: their life is uncouth: their sexual activity is promiscuous, and for the most part unhidden even when they hide it: they advertise it by hanging a quiver on the yoke of the wagon, so that none may inadvertently break in. So little respect have they for their weapons of war. They carve up their fathers' corpses along with mutton, to gulp down at banquets. If any die in a condition not good for eating, their death is a disgrace. Women also have lost the gentleness, along with the modesty, of their sex. They display their breasts, they do their house-work with battle-axes, they prefer fighting to matrimonial duty. There is sternness also in the climate—never broad daylight, the sun always niggardly, the only air they have is fog, the whole year is winter, every wind that blows is the north wind. Water becomes water only by heating: rivers are no rivers, only ice: mountains are piled high up with snow: all is torpid, everything stark. Savagery is there the only thing warm—such savagery as has provided the theatre with tales of Tauric sacrifices, Colchian love-affairs, and Caucasian crucifixions.

Even so, the most barbarous and melancholy thing about Pontus is that Marcion was born there, more uncouth than a Scythian, more unsettled than a Wagon-dweller, more uncivilized than a Massagete, with more effrontery than an Amazon, darker than fog, colder than winter, more brittle than ice, more treacherous than the Danube, more precipitous than Caucasus. Evidently so, when by him the true Prometheus, God Almighty, is torn to bits with blasphemies. More ill-conducted also is Marcion than the wild beasts of that barbarous land: for is any beaver more self-castrating than this man who has abolished marriage? What Pontic mouse is more corrosive than the man who has gnawed away the Gospels? Truly the Euxine has given birth to a wild animal more acceptable to philosophers than to Christians: that dog-worshipper Diogenes carried a lamp about at midday, looking to find a man, whereas Marcion by putting out the light of his own faith has lost the God whom once he had found. His followers cannot deny that his faith at first agreed with ours, for his own letter proves it: so that without further ado that man can be marked down as a heretic, or 'chooser', who, forsaking what had once been, has chosen for himself that which previously was not. For that which is of later importation must needs be reckoned heresy, precisely because that has to be considered truth which was delivered of old and from the beginning.

But a different work of mine will be found to maintain this thesis against heretics, that even without discussion of their doctrines they can be proved to be such by this standing rule concerning novelty. At present however, seeing that a contest cannot be refused—for there is sometimes a danger that frequent recourse to the short-cut of that standing rule may be put down to lack of confidence—I shall begin by sketching out my opponent's doctrine, so that no one may be unaware of this which is to be our principal matter of contention.

The identification of Marcion “more filthy than any Scythian” is very curious. On the one hand we have a dualist named 'Scythian' of Alexandria who is said to have ultimately spawned Manichaeanism and on the other hand we have a dualist named Marcion the Scythian. Very curious.

stephan huller · 10-07-2011, 01:05 AM

My guess is that the name of Scythianus's disciple 'Terebinth' who was called Buddam owes some confusion to the Syriac/Aramaic/Arabic word for terebinth = بطم Butm (http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/)

http://books.google.com/books?id=rlY...page&q&f=false

Apparently 'Scythian' in Syriac is squty (http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/)

DCHindley · 10-07-2011, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have been thinking about this all day and can't help but feel there is some connection with Marcion as Pontus is inevitably associated with the Scythians. The first words of Against Marcion portray the Marcionites as Scythians who supposedly inhabit Pontus:

...

The identification of Marcion “more filthy than any Scythian” is very curious. On the one hand we have a dualist named 'Scythian' of Alexandria who is said to have ultimately spawned Manichaeanism and on the other hand we have a dualist named Marcion the Scythian. Very curious.

Origen, Against Celsus, 1:1

... if a man were placed among Scythians, whose laws were unholy, and having no opportunity of escape, were compelled to live among them, such an one would with good reason, for the sake of the law of truth, which the Scythians would regard as wickedness, enter into associations contrary to their laws, with those like-minded with himself;

so, if truth is to decide, the laws of the heathens which relate to images, and an atheistical polytheism, are "Scythian" laws, or more impious even than these, if there be any such. It is not irrational, then, to form associations in opposition to existing laws, if done for the sake of the truth.

For as those persons would do well who should enter into a secret association in order to put to death a tyrant who had seized upon the liberties of a state, so Christians also, when tyrannized over by him who is called the devil, and by falsehood, form leagues contrary to the laws of the devil, against his power, and for the safety of those others whom they may succeed in persuading to revolt from a government which is, as it were, "Scythian," and despotic.

I wonder if the name is really an orthodox nickname for him, meant as a slight. The "two principals" crap is so vague as to be silly, and is similar to their attribution of Marcion's Good/Just/bad principals to a mysterious Cerdo, who is more than likely one of many Platonic philosophers who jiggered with Plato's first principals, monad, dyad, the Craftsman and unformed matter. Presumably, Scythianus imports dualism from India when it was much more likely derived from Median Zoroastrianism. As you point out, the India association probably comes from the Syriac name of his disciple Terebinthus, Butm, which was associated incorrectly with Buddha, someone who indeed did live and teach in India.

I am detecting a whiff of Damis the disciple of Appolonius of Tyana, who supposedly accompanied the latter to India and penned a travel diary describing Apollonius' wonderous deeds, which Philostratus claims to have used for his biography of the wandering sage.

The polemic of 3rd-4th century church fathers seems to be based primarily on rumors and innuendo.

DCH

stephan huller · 10-07-2011, 09:01 AM

Thanks so much DCH. I think we're on to something. Could this be the solution to why Marcion was called 'Scythian' have something to do with the appeal of Paul in Col 3:11:

Quote:

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Remember there must have been a time where Marcion's knowledge of the Pauline material was exclusive or at least not that well known to the rest of Christianity. Could there have been some appeal to this appeal to a far off people like the Scythians? Why indeed does the apostle mention the Scythians here? How could there be Scythian Christians in the apostolic age? It's odd.

stephan huller · 10-07-2011, 09:20 AM

More to your theory again. The Scythians had laws which sanctioned the eating of human beings (= drinking the flesh and blood of Christ) and called their God 'Pappaeus' (= Father?):

Quote:

Any one, indeed, who chooses, may relate how the various quarters of the earth, being distributed among certain governing powers, are administered by those who superintend them; but let him tell us also how what is done among each nation is done rightly when agreeable to the wishes of the superintendents. Let him, for example, tell us whether the laws of the Scythians, which permit the murder of parents, are right laws; or those of the Persians, which do not forbid the marriages of sons with their mothers, or of daughters with their own fathers. But what need is there for me to make selections from those who have been engaged in the business of enacting laws among the different nations, and to inquire how the laws are rightly enacted among each, according as they please the superintending powers? Let Celsus, however, tell us how it would be an act of impiety to get rid of those ancestral laws which permit the marriages of mothers and daughters; or which pronounce a man happy who puts an end to his life by hanging, or declare that they undergo entire purification who deliver themselves over to the fire, and who terminate their existence by fire [Against Celsus 5.27]

The Scythians, indeed, regard it as a noble act to banquet upon human beings. Among the Indians, too, there are some who deem themselves discharging a holy duty in eating their fathers, and this is mentioned in a certain passage by Herodotus. For the sake of credibility, I shall again quote his very words, for he writes as follows: 'For if any one were to make this proposal to all men, viz., to bid him select out of all existing laws the best, each would choose, after examination, those of his own country. [ibid 5.34]

Celsus, moreover, says that no wrong is committed by any one who wishes to observe the religious worship sanctioned by the laws of his country; and it follows, according to his view, that the Scythians commit no wrong, when, in conformity with their country's laws, they eat human beings. And those Indians who eat their own fathers are considered, according to Celsus, to do a religious, or at least not a wicked act. He adduces, indeed, a statement of Herodotus which favours the principle that each one ought, from a sense of what is becoming, to obey his country's laws; and he appears to approve of the custom of those Indians called Callatians, who in the time of Darius devoured their parents, since, on Darius inquiring for how great a sum of money they would be willing to lay aside this usage, they raised a loud shout, and bade the king say no more. [ibid 5.36]

And I think," continues Celsus, "that it makes no difference whether you call the highest being Zeus, or Zen, or Adonai, or Sabaoth, or Ammoun like the Egyptians, or Pappaeus like the Scythians. [5.41]

As Celsus, however, is of opinion that it matters nothing whether the highest being be called Jupiter, or Zen, or Adonai, or Sabaoth, or Ammoun (as the Egyptians term him), or Pappaeus (as the Scythians entitle him), let us discuss the point for a little, reminding the reader at the same time of what has been said above upon this question, when the language of Celsus led us to consider the subject. [5.45]

And although the Scythians may call Pappaeus the supreme God, vet we will not yield our assent to this; granting, indeed, that there is a Supreme Deity, although we do not give the name Pappaeus to Him as His proper title, but regard it as one which is agreeable to the demon to whom was allotted the desert of Scythia, with its people and its language. He, however, who gives God His title in the Scythian tongue, or in the Egyptian or in any language in which he has been brought up, will not be guilty of sin. [5.46]

stephan huller · 10-07-2011, 09:32 AM

Another point is the myth of Edem in the gnostic Justin = half human half snake woman. As Miroslav Marcovich notes in his Justin's Baruch (Studies in Graeco-Roman religions and Gnosticism p. 94):

Quote:

what is the likely source of Justin's inspiration? Hippolytus himself (5.25.1-4) suggested the Scythian Echidna, half virgin and half viper, the mother of Agathyrsus, Gelonus and Scythes by Heracles, according to Herodotus 4.8 -10. Herodotus' myth remains a possibility, but a remote one. For (1) the similarities between Justin's Edem and Herodotus' Echidna stop at their identical shape: the rest of each myth is different.

Markovich also notes there is a Marcionite reference to 'the Good God.' First Mark 10:18:

Quote:

In a group of Gnostic systems there is a clear opposition between the supreme Good God and the Jewish Just God. For example, in Cerdon, Marcion, Apelles, and, I think, in Justin's Baruch as well (compare Hippol. 5.26.16, below, Theme 8). There can be little doubt that the Just God is the Jewish Demiurge, the God of Law, Retribution and final Justice, while the Good God is best explained as an alien, extra-cosmic, unknowable god, say, the Iranian Ahura Mazda (or Ohrmazd)

DCHindley · 10-07-2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Thanks so much DCH. I think we're on to something. Could this be the solution to why Marcion was called 'Scythian' have something to do with the appeal of Paul in Col 3:11:

Quote:

Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Remember there must have been a time where Marcion's knowledge of the Pauline material was exclusive or at least not that well known to the rest of Christianity. Could there have been some appeal to this appeal to a far off people like the Scythians? Why indeed does the apostle mention the Scythians here? How could there be Scythian Christians in the apostolic age? It's odd.

Origen was trying to justify why Christians formed illegal associations (their congregations) in the face of Roman laws regarding the worship of images, which are compared to "Scythian Laws" (because Schythians would consider the "truth" to be wickedness). So, now, Christians are free to call anyone who proposes laws that are at variance to Christian truth "Scythians."

DCH

Iskander · 10-07-2011, 09:44 AM

I find that the Christian commentary explains the text adequately without making use of the esoteric.

Col 3:11 Christ is all:
Believers are drawn together into a world-wide family where the distinction between language, nationality, and social standing are no longer relevant [Gal 3:28].

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-06-2011, 08:25 PM	#2
PhilosopherJay Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,014	Wikipedia gives dates for Mani of 216-276. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_%28prophet%29). Scythianus, the story goes in the Acta Archelai had only one disciple named Terebinthus who wrote four books. It says that the widow who inherited Terebinthus' works bought Mani when he was seven. That would be 223 C.E. Scythianus logically must have died a relatively short time before that, circa 200 CE. That would preclude him being in India in 50 C.E. Somebody has their stories mixed up. Apparently a wooden chest fulled with Mani's works were discovered in bad condition in 1929 in Egypt. Being in ancient coptic, translation has been a bit tardy. Much of it was apparently translated into German. Some of it has been translated into English (By Iain Gardner. Pp. xli + 307. (Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies, 37.) Leiden: Brill, 1995. ISBN 90 04 1 0248 5. Gld 170/$97.25 )

10-07-2011, 01:05 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My guess is that the name of Scythianus's disciple 'Terebinth' who was called Buddam owes some confusion to the Syriac/Aramaic/Arabic word for terebinth = بطم Butm (http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/) http://books.google.com/books?id=rlY...page&q&f=false Apparently 'Scythian' in Syriac is squty (http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/)

10-07-2011, 09:44 AM	#10
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	I find that the Christian commentary explains the text adequately without making use of the esoteric. Col 3:11 Christ is all: Believers are drawn together into a world-wide family where the distinction between language, nationality, and social standing are no longer relevant [Gal 3:28].

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.