aa5874

In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus regarded Daniel as a prophet from God, he wrote about events surrounding Daniiel and his ability to interpret dreams and prophesy.

AJ, book 10. 11, "....And indeed it so came to pass that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman goverment, and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God showed them to him, insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled, would wonder at the honor wherewith God honored Daniel......."

Now, Daniel made mention of a Messiah, in Daniel 9.25-26, that should appear before the desolation of Jerusalem, according to the Church fathers, yet Josephus never made mention of this most important event and person, the birth of the Messiah, anywhere in his exposition on Daniel.

Why wasn't the Jesus the Christ, the one who was seen alive on the third day, counted as Daniel's most important fulfilled prophecy by Josephus?

mountainman

Because Jesus the Christ was an invention of
a subsequent century, as was the Testimonium
Flavianum.

aa5874

This is a reasonable position since I noticed that Philo of Alexandria, who was a contemporary of Tiberius and Pilate, also never mentioned in any of his extant writings this Jesus the Christ, son of a ghost, who was claimed to be prophesied by Daniel to be the messiah.

mountainman

Many of these questions will go unanswered
because not too many people seriously consider
their options over and above what they have
been authoritatively told.

Minds are often locked by academic tenure.
As someone commented elsewhere here:

Who are those who are seriously questioning
Jesus' existence inside the "academy"?
There are none.

DCHindley

Maybe because he was otherwise saying that Vespasian had fulfilled the prophesy. Why mention competitors?

Also, keep in mind that Daniel says an "annointed one" (which Christian society likes to translate as "Christ"), and not only in chapter 9, but this term can also indicate anyone appointed to a position of authority, usually high priests (formal annointing is official confirmation) but in one case also used figurativly of the pagan ruler Cyrus the Great.

The original author of this section of Daniel was likely refering to high priests such as Menelaus and Onias, not Jesus or Cyrus or Vespasian. It was later generations who did so, reinterpreting the past to fit the present.

DCH

aa5874

It is an indication to me that the TF and the passage in the AJ 20.9.1are later additions. Josephus, in book 10, made mention of events that he believed were fulfilled prophecies of Daniel, surely, I would imagine, that in order to show that Daniel was a prophet he would have catalogued a long-awaited and necessary prediction, the arrival of the Messiah.

However Josephus covered prophecies of Daniel from about 200 BCE to 70 CE, (from Antiochus Epiphanes to the fall of the temple) without a single word of this Messiah, which according to the book of Daniel would preceed the Jewish War of 70 CE.

Daniel 9.26, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the santuary...."

If the Romans are regarded as the 'people of the prince', by Josephus, then he seemed not to know who was 'Messiah'.

DCHindley

I still don't understand why Josephus has to mention Jesus Christ when to him Jesus (if he even knew of him) wasn't the messiah, Vespasian was (well, at least that is what he told Vespasian, who spared his life on account of it).

Besides, "Jesus Christ" is a title invented by gentile Christians for the divine savior of all mankind, a figure they developed by evolution from the human being they used to think was God's annointed (messiah) for the Jews.

Why on earh should Josephus share with Christians the view that Jesus was the Jewish messiah? Or is this your way of satirizing Christians for being so dumb (today) as to believe all the miracle legends, or devious enough (in ancient times) to invent miracles to make Jesus fulfill prophesy for evil but unfathomable purposes?

I see that we are talking past one another. I'm talking history and you are talking ... well ... fantasy.

DCH

aa5874

I think you may have mis-understood me. I am not of the view that Jesus, the son of a ghost, as described in the NT ever existed, however Josephus wrote a book on the Wars of the Jews in which he described the fulfillment of the so-called propehcy of Daniel yet he failed to mention a single word on the prophecy with regard to the Messiah who should have come before the fall of the temple and the desolation of Jerusalem.

DCHindley

Ca. 75 CE. Josephus, Jewish War, 6.5.4

But now, what did the most elevate them [i.e., the Jewish revolutionaries] in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

This opinion was confirmed by

Ca. 105-108 CE. Tacitus, Histories, 5.6.13. [alluding to and expanding upon Josephus War 6.5.4?]

Few people [in Judaea] placed a sinister interpretation upon this [portent of the door of the Temple swinging open on its own with a rushing sound accompanying the event]. The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophesy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this mighty destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth.

and

Ca. 119-122 CE. Suetonius, Life of Vespasian, 4. [Alluding to either Josephus War 6.5.4 or Tacitus Histories, 5.6.13?]

An ancient superstition was current in the East, that out of Judaea at this time would come the rulers of the world. This prediction, as the event later proved, referred to a Roman Emperor, but the rebellious Jews, ... read it as referring to themselves ...

Ca. 119-122 CE. Suetonius, Life of Vespasian, 5.

In Judaea, Vespasian consulted the oracle of the God of Carmel and was given the promise that he would never be disappointed in what he planned or desired, however lofty his ambitions. Also, a distinguished prisoner of Vespasian's, Josephus by name, insisted that he would soon be released by the very man who had now put him in fetters, and who would then be Emperor.

Ca. 900-1100 CE, Unknown Editor/Translator of Slavonic version of Josephus' Jewish War, replacing part of Book VI.5.3 regarding the Oracle of the World-Ruler.

Some understood that this meant Herod, others the crucified Wonder-worker Jesus, others again Vespasian.

DCH

aa5874

You have introduced some very interesting passages form Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius. It occurs to me then that the Messiah, Christ or the one of the Jews who "should become governor of the habitable earth", as interpreted to be the prophecy of Daniel , was expected by the Jews to be alive around 70 CE and not already dead 35 years earlier during the times of Pilate.

So, in effect, the passages from Tacitus, Suetonius and Josephus, Wars of the Jews, are an indication that the 'TF' and the passage of 'Antiquities of the Jews' 20.9.1 are contrary to the interpretation of Daniel's prophecy by the Jews.