Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 02-21-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

the internal consitency between all the books of the bible from Genesis to Revelations is amazing.

That must be why there are two versions of Creation and two of the flood story, huh? Covering all the bases?

arnoldo · 02-21-2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Tyre is to endure in this state until the final judgement which is the bringing down into the deep sea....the Pit. Tyre is not a failed prophecy but accurate 100% accurate. Which proves that God really do lives. A good thing if you are saved bad if not.....:wave:

I kind of feel for the poor people of Tyre today. I mean, it's hardly as if the whole world is watching what happens to them with a view to seeing if God will kill them all or not; so what would the so-called final fulfilment of God's prophecy prove? He fulfilled it but only believers noticed? But they believed anyway!

Or will they all die so believers can go out and tell the world that God really exists? But by that time, according to this prophecy, God will be here and everyone will know that already.

It seems to me that if anyone believed this to be a true prophecy and they had any compassion at all they'd be raising huge money to support an effort to save all those poor inhabitants of Tyre from their final fate. I presume that's what you are involved in doing?

I kinda feel for those 'higher criticism' people who want to force God to wipe Tyre off the map and at the same time mock God by calling him a baby killer. Tyre merely illustrates that the Lord doesn't delight in destroying people.
Note Ezekiel 33:

Quote:

11 “Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ 12 “And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, ‘The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’ 13 “When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 14 “But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 “None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right. 18 “When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 “But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.”

DrewDiggler · 02-21-2008, 09:18 PM

That's outrageous.

Gullwind · 02-21-2008, 09:20 PM

So basically, this prophecy is God telling Tyre that it will be destroyed, but not for thousands of years. Big deal.

It's also funny how the apologists claim 100% accuracy on prophecies that haven't happened yet.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-21-2008, 09:45 PM

Message to arnoldo: One reason that none of your arguments about Bible prophecy are valid is that no God who wanted to convince people to believe that he can predict the future would always make disputable prophecies. No religious book contains an indisputable prophecy because all religious books are false. If Pat Robertson predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be an indisputable prophecy. If that happened, surely some skeptics would become Christians who were not previously convinced. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus.

If a God exists, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he has not attempted to convince people to believe that he can predict the future. If a God wanted people to have faith, he most certainly would not try to strengthen their faith with fulfilled prophecy after the fact. If a God exists, it is a virtual given that he has not attempted to strengthen the faith of believers with fulfilled prophecy after the fact. That is because the very best way for a God to strengthen the faith of believers with fulfilled prophecy after the fact would be to make an indisputable prophecy. The Bible does not contain any indisputable prophecies. The lack of any reasonable motives why the God of the Bible does what he does is sufficient evidence that he does not exist, or, if a God inspired the Bible, since all of his predictions are needlessly disputable, which encourages dissent instead of discouraging dissent, that is sufficient grounds for people to reject him.

arnoldo · 02-22-2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullwind

So basically, this prophecy is God telling Tyre that it will be destroyed, but not for thousands of years. Big deal.

It's also funny how the apologists claim 100% accuracy on prophecies that haven't happened yet.

Have you read what Alexander did to the people in Tyre? Pretty barbaric. The Skeptics somehow point out for the prophecy to be fulfilled Nebby who basically have had to have slaughtered all of the people in Tyre however the Lord does not delight in destroying people. Yeshua himself stated that future judgment is reserved for the people of Tyre on the day of judgment. (if there is no resurrection then all christians are fools according to Paul). Note: Luke 10

Quote:

'Woe to thee, Chorazin; woe to thee, Bethsaida; for if in Tyre and Sidon had been done the mighty works that were done in you, long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes, they had reformed; 14 but for Tyre and Sidon it shall be more tolerable in the judgment than for you.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-22-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Have you read what Alexander did to the people in Tyre? Pretty barbaric.

It doesn't matter. No rational God would make 100% disputable prophecies. The Bible and all other religious books contain 100% disputable prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, that would an indisputable prophecy. If that happened, surely some skeptics would become Christians who were not previously convinced. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of follower based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus.

In your opinion, if God telephathically communicated the same messages to everyone in the world, would that eliminate a lot of doubt and confusion?

If you would rather discuss these issues in another thread, just let me know and I will direct you to other threads at this forum and at the GRD Forum where discussions regarding these issues have taken place, threads which, by the way, you conveniently vacated when you got into trouble.

By the way, you and sugarhitman are the most evasive fundies that I have ever come across. Evasiveness is good evidence of weakness. The undecided crowd are not impressed by evasiveness. You are sugarhitman frequently insist on choosing which issues get discussed. That is not fair.

I am a dedicated skeptic, and I am very patient. When I know that I have good arguments, I never give up. I exchanged over 220 posts with rhutchin over many months. He is a Calvinist. He eventually gave up, left the IIDB for months, came back again, and gave up against after a few months. The only way that you will outlast me is to outlive me, and my life expectacy is about 15more years. If you refuse to reply to my posts, I will still reply to your posts. I do not mind winning debates by default.

Amaleq13 · 02-22-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Have you read what Alexander did to the people in Tyre? Pretty barbaric.

Yes but clearly short of what the prophecy predicted.

Quote:

The Skeptics somehow point out for the prophecy to be fulfilled...

"[S]omehow"? They do so by following the text rather than their preferences. IOW, the exact opposite of your approach.

Do you have anything substantive to add to your defense of this alleged prophecy or will you be doing nothing but repeating yourself and/or preaching?

If the latter, this thread might as well be closed.

WVIncagold · 02-22-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It doesn't matter since 100% percent disputable prophecies in any religious book is sufficient evidence that the God(s) of that religious book does not exist. No rational God would make even one disputable prophecy because that would harm his reputation. <edit.. brevity>

If you refuse to reply to this post, I will repost it as frequently as necessary in order to show the undecided crowd that you are not nearly as confident of your argumments as you pretend you are.

Disputable prophecies are good because at least you can't claim they are prophecies written after the fact! For example if Zekey wrote that Tyre would simply be attacked by various nations and continue to exist you would simply state it was written after the fact. The way it was written people will read Ezekiel for themselves instead of going by other people's opinions.

OH for the love of all thats stupid! you got to be kidding me! So now your claim is a prophecy is wrong on purpose to show that its right? Thats fricking soooo stupid. That shows nothing but guessing. Prophesy by nature has to prophesied something that actually happens. Give me a break this argument is the dumbest yet.:rolling:

WVIncagold · 02-22-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Yes you can. All it takes is imperfect knowledge, an ancient non-technological culture, and add 2000 years of mistakes and copyist errors.

Sir, the Dead Sea Scrolls have documented that minimal copyist errors have occurred in the Bible.

Really how about posting what they say and a precise time they were made? or anything relevant on the Tyre prophecy contained within the scrolls. bald assertions without any proof. I am god of West Virginia. Because i printed it here it means its true.

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02-21-2008, 09:18 PM	#363
DrewDiggler Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Superstition void Posts: 378	That's outrageous.

02-21-2008, 09:20 PM	#364
Gullwind Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,037	So basically, this prophecy is God telling Tyre that it will be destroyed, but not for thousands of years. Big deal. It's also funny how the apologists claim 100% accuracy on prophecies that haven't happened yet.

02-21-2008, 09:45 PM	#365
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: One reason that none of your arguments about Bible prophecy are valid is that no God who wanted to convince people to believe that he can predict the future would always make disputable prophecies. No religious book contains an indisputable prophecy because all religious books are false. If Pat Robertson predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be an indisputable prophecy. If that happened, surely some skeptics would become Christians who were not previously convinced. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. Micah 5:2 says “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. If a God exists, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he has not attempted to convince people to believe that he can predict the future. If a God wanted people to have faith, he most certainly would not try to strengthen their faith with fulfilled prophecy after the fact. If a God exists, it is a virtual given that he has not attempted to strengthen the faith of believers with fulfilled prophecy after the fact. That is because the very best way for a God to strengthen the faith of believers with fulfilled prophecy after the fact would be to make an indisputable prophecy. The Bible does not contain any indisputable prophecies. The lack of any reasonable motives why the God of the Bible does what he does is sufficient evidence that he does not exist, or, if a God inspired the Bible, since all of his predictions are needlessly disputable, which encourages dissent instead of discouraging dissent, that is sufficient grounds for people to reject him.

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