reniaa

For the sake of comparative study can you make a similar list of historical non-biblical figures from the same time period and the evidence level proving them?

spamandham

There is no relevant evidence to research on Jesus that presents him as anything less than a god incarnate. Further, he looks very suspiciously like a constructed character designed by Rome to convince the messianic apocalyptic Jews that their Messiah had already come, so they'd stop rebelling. If indeed it was a ruse, it appears to have possibly worked.

spamandham

You really need to be more specific than that. There are thousands of such characters to choose from, and I'm not going to present a book here in post form.

mountainman

Gaius Asinius Pollio (-76-5), Nicolaus of Damascus (-65-5), Augustus (-63-14), Livy (Titus Livius) (-59-17), Ovid (Publius Ovidius Naso) (-43-17), Herod Archelaus (-23-18), King Juba II (of Lybia) (-52-23), Strabo (-64-24), Aulus Cremutius Cordus (-25-25), Herod of Chalcis (-10-27), Gaius Asinius Pollio (Jnr) (-20-30), Marcus Velleius Paterculus (-19-31), Thrasyllus of Mendes (-36-36), Tiberius (-42-37), Aulus Cornelius Celsus (-20-37), Seneca (the Elder) (-54-39), Pontius Pilate (-10-40), Herod Antipas (-20-40), Ptolemy of Mauretania (-1-40), Caligula (12-41), Agrippa I (Herod Agrippa) (-10-44), Zeno of Sidon (-100-44), Diophantus (-20-44), Gaius Sallustius Passienus Crispus (1-47), Philo-Judaeus (-15-50), Abgar V of Edessa (-4-50), Remmius Palaemon (-10-51), Claudius (-10-54), Lucius Iunius Moderatur Columella (1-60), Persius (Aulus Persius Flaccus) (34-62), Lucan (Marcus Annaeus Lucanus) (39-65), Seneca (the Younger) (-4-65), Thrasea Paetus (20-66), Petronius (27-66), Nero (37-68), Galba (-3-69), Otho (32-69), Vitellus (15-69), Dioscorides (1-70), Cornutus (39-70), Moderatus of Gades (Cadiz, Spain) (0-70), Asconius Pedianus (-9-76), Helvidius Priscus (35-77), Demetrius the Cynic (36-77), Vespasian (9-79), Pliny the Elder (23-79), Quintus Curtius Rufus (10-80), Damis (0-80), Chariton (10-80), Titus (39-81), Memnon of Heraclea (20-90), Mucianus (20-90), Statius (Publius Papinius Statius) (45-96), Domitian (51-96), Nerva (30-98), Apollonius of Tyana (-4-98), Quintilian (Marcus Fabius Quintilia (35-100), Agrippa II (27-100), Musonius Rufus (30-100), Flavius Josephus (37-100), Neilus (son of Theon) (50-100), Silius Italicus (25-101), Martial (40-102), Pliny the Younger (63-113), Juvenal (40-115), Trajan (Marcus Nerva Traianus) (53-117), Tacitus (Cornelius) (56-117 ), Plutarch, Mestrius (46-120), Aelianus Tacticus (50-120), Nicomachus of Gerasa (Jerash, Jorda (60-120), Dio Chrysostom (of Prusa) (40-120), Curtis Rufus, Quintus (70-120), Florus (60-130), Suetonius (70-131), Epictetus (55-135), Secundus (the philosopher) (76-138), Soranus of Ephesus (98-138), Hadrian (Publius Aelius Traianus) (76-138), Ptolemaeus Chennus (60-140), Demonax (70-140), Favorinus (80-150), Aristocles of Messene (100-150), Antoninus Pius (86-161), Appian of Alexandria (95-165), Sextus of Chaeroneia (90-165), Ptolemy (Claudius Ptolemaeus) (90-168), Fronto (Cornelius) (100-170), Junius Rusticus (90-170), Artemidorus (100-170), Avidius Cassius (130-175), Arrian of Nicomedia (92-175), Lucian of Samosata (165-175), Herodes Atticus (101-177), Celsus (178-178), Alciphron (120-180), Aulus Gellius (125-180), Marcus Aurelius (Antoninus) (121-180), Lucius Apuleius (123-180), Thallus (90-180), Pausanias (110-180), Rufus of Ephesus (110-180), Alexander of Cottyaeum (117-181), Aelius Aristides (117-181), Symmachus the Ebionite (110-190), Longus (120-190), Granius Licinianus (120-190), Numenius of Apamea (140-190), Hermas (120-190), Commodus (161-192), Pertinax (126-193), Didius Julianus (133-193), Pescennius Niger (140-194), Sextus Pompeius Festus (120-195), Clodius Albinus (150-197), Alexander of Aphrodisias (120-199), Phlegon (99-199), Mara Bar Serapion (073-200), Julian the Theurgist (160-210), Septimius Severus (146-211), Geta (189-211), Abercius (193-216), Galen (Claudius Galenus) (129-216), Talmud (188-217), Caracalla (186-217), Macrinus (165-218), Diadumenian (190-218), Philostratus (200-220), Athenaeus of Naucratis (160-220), Elagabalus (203-222), Dio Cassius (165-230), Marius Maximus (160-230), Claudius Aelianus (175-235), Alexander Severus (208-235), Alexander Severus (208-235), Maximinus Thrax (173-238), Gordian I (159-238), Pupienus (178-238), Balbinus (165-238), Gordian II (192-238), Philip II (Philippus II) (238-239), Sextus Empiricus (170-240), Xenophon of Ephesus (170-240), Herodian of Syria (170-240), Gordian III (225-244), Ammonius Saccas (155-245), Pacatian (Pacatianus) (200-248), Jotapian (Jotapianus) (200-249), Philip the Arab (204-249), Philip the Arab (204-249), Julius Africanus (170-250), Babrius (-250-250), Decius Trajan (201-251), Decius (201-251), Herennius Etruscus (227-251), Hostilian (233-251), Trebonianus Gallus (206-253), Aemilianus (207-253), Volusianus (200-253), Uranius (200-254), Origen (185-254), Diogenes Laertius (190-260), Valerian (200-260), Gallienus (218-268), Plotinus (205-270), Asinius Quadratus (200-270), Claudius II (213-270), Quintillus (225-270), Longinus, Cassius Dionysius (213-273), Aurelian (214-275), Tacitus (Marcus Claudius) (200-276), Mani the Prophet (210-276), Florianus (200-276), Heliodorus of Emesa (220-280), Probus (232-282), Carus (230-283), Carinus (240-285), Junianus Justinus (220-290), Carausius (240-293), Allectus (245-296), Diophantus of Alexandria (200-298), Porphyry (234-305), Constantius Chlorus (250-306), Asclepiodotus (250-310), Galerius (250-311), Diocletian (236-316), Hierocles (270-324), Iamblichus of Chalcis (245-325), Amoun (250-325)

aa5874

Well, we can all look at the information supplied by the NT and apologetic sources and see if it is really equal to historical figures.

This is Jesus of the NT:

• Jesus was conceived through the Holy Ghost

• Jesus had no earthly father

• The Holy Spirit entered Jesus in the shape of doves when he was baptised by John the Baptist

• The Devil or Satan took Jesus on top of a moutain to see the four kingdoms of the earth, and the Devil took Jesus on the pinnacle of the Temple and asked him to jump.

• Jesus used to spit on people to make them see and talked to the dead and they heard him and came to life, even a man dead for four days, heard Jesus

• Jesus walked on water

• Jesus transfigured, his face shone like the sun and people, Moses and Elijah, dead for hundreds of years came back to life

• Jesus was resurrected and left his burial linen at the tomb

• Jesus was seen going through the clouds by his disciples

Jesus appears to be fundamentally supernatural, I know of no other figure accepted as historical whose biography is so unrealistic, from conception to ascension. The mythical fables of Jesus are comparable to or surpass those of Achilles, the son of a sea-goddess.

Doug Shaver

No, I don't think so. As the number of independently confirmed peripheral characters increases, the more anomalous becomes the absence of confirmation for the central character.

The usual excuse for the failure of contemporary historians to mention Jesus is that he didn't do anything important enough to get their attention. If the existence of every person mentioned in the New Testament were independently corroborated, excepting only Jesus, I don't think historicists would have a leg to stand on.

Doug Shaver

No, it isn't.
It doesn't matter if the sources are apologetic.

Non sequitur.

Nonsense.

Irrelevant to my argument. No document that I consider credible claims that Peter witnessed anything.

aa5874

You are just contradicting yourself. You now claiming that your original position is not true, in general?

In general, Peter, James and Paul were probably NOT real persons, since "in general, anyone whose existence is attested only in the gospels (and documents clearly dependent on the gospels) was probably NOT a real person---emphasis on "in general".



So why do you then think that the character called Peter is credible, that is, he actually existed when you have NO credible evidence of his existence and when events surronding the character are fictitious?

I think you have mis-understood the OP, it is asking Mythicist what other characters do they consider to not have existed if Jesus did not exist.

Now, if the NT claimed Peter saw Jesus alive, walked on water to go to Jesus during a storm, saw Jesus transfigured with Moses and Elijah resurrected and was with Jesus after he ROSE from the dead, then it is probable that Peter was also a mythical fable like Jesus, James and Paul who was converted after a bright light made him blind to reality while he heard voices of Jesus.

andrewcriddle

This page on the manuscripts of Josephus may be relevant.

Andrew Criddle

Toto

No skeptic that we can identify questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate, even before that inscription was discovered.

The OP was evidently setting up a false analogy. I think the writer is not a mythicist.

I don't think you have actually looked at the evidence.

No one bases a religion on the existence of a historical Socrates, and I don't know any skeptic who would insist that Socrates must have existed. But there is, in any case, a tiny bit more evidence for a historical Socrates than there is for Jesus.

This is a real non sequitur. Lots of skeptics in fact accept that there is a historical core to Jesus, but have no trouble rejecting all of the miracle stories.

Please don't insult people. Lots of people who have researched all the evidence have decided that Jesus didn't exist, or might not have existed.