zaitzeff

A preacher friend named Dave Schulze and I had lunch earlier this week. I mentioned that I held some secondary views which I don't always mention to people based on the instruction of Paul in Romans 14:22. So Dave asks me to inform him of what they are and we can perhaps discuss them later. Anyway here they are:

Dave,

you asked if I would send you a listing of my secondary beliefs which are perhaps unusual and some of which might be regarded as troubling by some. In some cases, I don't volunteer my stack of beliefs, based on the instruction of Romans 14 and in particular Romans 14:22.

22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

It is not that I am ashamed or embarassed by certain of my beliefs, but that it is that it is not always helpful to each and every other person to immediately know each and every of my beliefs. However, since you have asked, here goes. And, if when I am finished and you have read, if you wish to believe that I am not a Christian, that is OK; it might happen.

1) I believe that the Bible contains errors of various kinds, including false predictions and theological errors and that the Bible, if taken as a whole and literally, measured by its own standard in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, fails the test and lacks authority to govern our lives.
2) However, I also believe there is a God and that Jesus is the Son of God and God and that the Bible contains a revelation of God, a revelation of God which is at times obscured by its errors and mistakes.
3) I suspect that Blaise Pascal had the right idea when he observed that problems and mistakes or "mistakes" we might find in the Bible serve a purpose of giving wicked men a reason to disbelieve God.
4) However, the end result is that, while I give the Bible a limited and provisional authority, I reserve the right to find certain teachings or statements errors or to declare that they must be
reinterpreted in such a way to conform with what we know or should know from other also reliable sources.
5) Ultimately the only reliable source of information to a person is personal revelation to that person, but that God seems to enjoy hiding and He often does not make things very obvious to us. As a result, there are times in which we must say, "As best I can determine . . . however, if I am wrong, God show me the right. . ."
6) Apart from and useful with personal revelation, other somewhat reliable but imperfect sources of revelation would include science, reason, Christian experience in history, NDEs and other similar experiences.
7) However, it should be noted that God often leads His people to read and learn the Bible and that the various forms of spirituality one might chose apart from learning the Bible produce various kinds of spiritual immaturity and at times error. Yes, God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, Hosea 4:6

6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Within that framework, lets look at some specifics:
1) I believe that God is responsible for everything that happens, good and bad. Actually, I believe that whatever is done, God does, as Julian says.
2) I believe that God knows the future in detail, as the Bible implies everywhere
3) I believe that God has predestined all things;
4) I believe that all persons will eventually be saved, as Paul suggests in Romans 5:18,19;
I Cor 15:24-28 and Phil 2:10,11
5) I believe that most humans on earth have lived on earth previously and at least some on earth now will live again in a mortal human body, as we see evidenced in various NDEs;
6) I believe that for many Christians, God pours out His Spirit subsequent to their conversion, see Acts 2 and Acts 8;
7) I deny that such Holy Spirit baptism is always and necessarily accompanied by speaking in other tongues, but believe that it may be and often is.
8) I believe that God gives revelation to men today, revelation of varying kinds, see I Cor 12:3.
9) I believe that we have 7 genuine letters of Paul: Romans, Galatians, I Thess, Philippians,
Philemon, I and II Corinthians. I believe that the other letters of "Paul" were not written by Paul, but by others writing in Paul's name. In the case of Colossians, we might have a person who wrote while Paul was in prison and the letter itself being personally approved by Paul, but all the other Pauline letters did not have his approval and some even teach contrary to the genuine Paul. II Thess wrongly teaches eternal destruction or punishment in distinction to Paul; the Pastoral epistles are theologically different from Paul in a number of areas, most obviously on the question of singleness & marriage and probably in the attitude of Paul to women.
10) I suspect that the women suppressive passages in I Cor 11 and 14 were not written by Paul, but this is not clear. If they were written by Paul, they are simply and plainly a mistake.
11) I believe that none of the 4 gospels were written by eyewitnesses and that the 3 synoptics contain theological errors and at least a few falsehoods. I believe that the synoptics are wrong to teach eternal punishment and that the story of the young rich ruler may well be wrong and contrary to Paul. I believe that the stories of the cursing of the fig tree and the cleansing of the temple are fictions and that the virgin birth story is probably fictional. (While I believe God does miracles, I don't see any good reason for the birth of Jesus to have been arranged by a miracle!) I believe Jesus was born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem.
12) I believe that Paul was a universalist, as was the Pastorist and the writer of John and the epistles of John.
13) I believe it is a helpful practice to Christians to take time to listen to God, but that those who listen may be led into spiritual gifts and may progressively adopt many of the beliefs I hold.
14) I believe that sex outside of marriage is not always a sin, but that sinfulness should be measured by whether or not harm is done and whether or not the love we are to have for others is interrupted;
15) While I do not advocate homosexual acts, I don't believe they are inherently sinful or offensive to God; I make this statement with the qualification that I doubt that anal sex is the smartest thing to do, physically speaking and perhaps spiritually speaking, for homosexuals or heterosexuals, but it is not my job to stop anyone in their sexual choices, generally speaking.
(Of course, I would stop a person from raping others, if I could.)
16) I don't believe God is offended by Indian erotic temple art; I think it is OK to enjoy erotic art;
I visit strip clubs once in a while; I view nudes; I view nudes of minors.
17) Given that God has predestined all things, it is ultimately impossible for God to condemn anyone for anything;
18) I suspect that God created the universe to experience our being alive.
19) I believe that all the persons in hell will eventually leave hell, because after a while, they will figure out it is not to their liking and they will pray and ask God for help and mercy and He will provide it and with it, a way out of hell.
20) I believe that God will repay each person for the sufferings he has suffered or does suffer--see the end of the book of Job and Joel 2:25--and that this principle is applied very broadly and includes the suffering we suffer for our sins.
21) I believe that all sins bring with them suffering to the one who sins, but also that God will pay every person back for the sufferings he suffers as a result of his own sins. For example, I believe that Hitler will experience or has experienced the suffering he brought to many people, but that, ultimately, God will reward Hitler with a special reward to compensate Hitler for that suffering. However, these facts should not be an encouragement to sin, but a comfort to those who know that our actions were predestined by God.
22) I believe that God will ultimately turn all evil into good and that God permits and even causes "evil" for the ultimate good produced.
23) I imagine that God enjoys showing Himself to people who don't think He is there. Maybe that is one of God's ideas of fun.
24) I believe that Paul was right in his doctrine of justification by faith. I doubt that baptism brings remission of sins previously otherwise obtained by faith. However, from God's point of view, I am not sure we are even ever unforgiven.
25) I believe that Julian of Norwich wrote useful things and I assume she received revelation.
26) I believe that God will progressively bring the earth to a state of practical paradise, but that
the so-called 2nd coming cannot be taken literally.
27) I believe that the next 50 years will see a number of disasters of various types befall the earth and the USA, including a severe shortage of oil and depression in the USA.
28) I suspect that the US government will collapse as it struggles with the disasters it will face.
29) I believe that many communities in the time of paradise to come will be clothing optional.
30) I believe that in the time of paradise to come, everyone on earth will be Christian.
31) I suspect that the book of Revelation contains theological error on the subject of eternal punishment.
32) I believe the earth is about 4.5 billion years old and that life on earth has evolved.
33) I believe that evangelical efforts to prevent homosexual marriage are misguided.
34) I suspect that legalized abortion should be kept preserved.
35) I believe that those nations, groups and churches that persecute Christians and/or persecute the truth within them are cursed and shall be overthrown or dissolved.
36) whether the USA collapses first before the Christian-persecuting Muslim nations is not clear;
37) I believe that a basic knowledge of existentialism is useful for Christians;
38) I believe that the Bible teaches predestination;
39) I believe that becaue the Bible teaches both predestination and the eternal conscious torment of the wicked in hell, that the Bible portrays God as doing what is evil.
40) I believe that the Bible portrays God as knowing the future in detail.
41) because the Bible portrays God as knowing the future in detail and as the eternal conscious torment of the wicked in hell, the Bible portrays God as doing evil.
42) there was no worldwide flood around 2200BC, but there may have been a flood into the black sea in the last 7000 year or so, a flood which gave rise to the story of the flood of Noah.
43) mankind has never had lifespans longer than 150 years;
44) it is easy to find historical errors in the Bible, simply by laying the parallel passages of I & II Kings and I and II Chronicles side by side.
45) that such historical errors are not simply the result of the errors of copyists, but some were made intentionally.
46) that a simple examination of the life of King Asa in Kings and Chronicles reveals 4 distinct and obvious contradictions, none of which are due to scribal errors;
47) that when "Matthew" says that there were 42 generations from Abraham to Jesus, he is only truthful in a symbolic sense, because there were in fact 18 generations from David to Jehoiachin. Mt omits 4 kings of Judah to get his numbers "right" and "right" for Mt meant 14, not 18;
48) a comparison of the synoptics gospels reveals that the infancy narratives between Mt and Lk are mutually exclusive and that Mt and Mk do not agree on the date on which Jesus cursed the fig tree;
49) Jesus cursing the fig tree is a story that is unlikely if Jesus really is God and all-good. Jesus cleansing the temple would have been historically impossible.
50) Luke 2:2 places the birth of Jesus in 6 AD, which is far too late, given other information about the life of Jesus, for Quirinius was not governor of Syria till 6 AD.
51) the author of Acts had two stories of the origin of the church. One of those stories was Acts 2 and 5 and the other story was Acts 3 and 4. The two stories are really two different versions of the same story. The author of Acts chose to retain both stories and to do so, he inserted Acts 3&4, between Acts 2 and 5. I assume that Acts 1 was originally associated with Acts 2.
52) if I recall correctly, Theudas of Acts 5:36 actually followed Judas the Galilean, but my memory is fallible.
53) the Old Testament contains false predictions, among them are included false predictions in
Ezekiel 26, a chapter that some Christians allege proves the prophetic accuracy of the Bible;
54) Ez 26:14,21 says that Tyre would never again be rebuilt; it would be sought for and not found again. In fact, the city of Tyre has been destroyed and rebuilt numerous times. Paul stops there on his way to Jerusalem, Acts 21:3, which would no doubt have been quite difficult
if Ezekiel 26:14,21 had been fulfilled.
55) Even if the Bible were completely accurate in all its prophecies, but it taught errors in matters of morality either for God or humans, it should be rejected on that basis as an infallible authority. Because the Bible simultaneously teaches predestination and eternal punishment of sinners in hell, no man could take the Bible as an infallible authority without harm to his own soul. For, by that teaching, God is evil. And, no man can deny that the Bible teaches both without dishonesty.
56) There are additional reasons that at times justify divorce other than fornication of the unfaithful partner or desertion by an unbeliever. Such reasons may include physical or verbal abuse, as well as general neglect. Moreover, there could be a simple matter of one party being called by God to do a thing involving physical relocation and the other party not moving.
57) Lying is to be avoided generally, but at times is justified. The Old and New Testaments both show us examples of God approving of lying in certain circumstances, chief among them, Exodus 1 and John 7:8. As for avoiding lying generally, however, I'd recommend When Presidents Lie by Eric Alterman on how even the lies of Presidents have had serious negative unintended consequences. I'd lie to Nazis to save a Jew, but some of the lies of Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, & Johnson have been really stupid and got the US into worse trouble than if we had not made the lie, I believe. Admittedly, Kennedy would have had trouble solving the Cuban missile crisis without lying about the missiles in Turkey.
58) Adultery and fornication would be justified in some circumstances, such as to save life. Moreover, those who as part of sex therapy have sex with sex surrogates do not commit adultery or fornication.
59) God takes no offense at women speaking in church or pastoring, nor with the use of musical instruments in worship. However, let all things be done to edification.
60) The early Christians were generally baptized nude. Again, God takes no offense, and nude baptism is probably desirable, but not mandatory, unless you wish to go by II Thess 2:15.
61) God gives men spiritual gifts, including gifts of miracles, tongues and prophecy, including various sorts of supernatural knowledge.
62) The attempted assassignation of Hitler during WWII was, I assume, done without spiritual harm to those who attempted it or approved it, but I am not sure it was the wisest solution to the problem of Naziism. Nevertheless, the Old Testament justifies murder at times, but I assume that you nor I will be faced with solving the morality of certain murders.
63) While the Old Testament at times justifies murder, US "foreign policy" carried out by the CIA in covert operations has generally been harmful to the USA, rather than helpful.
64) Attempts of the government to legislate matters of morality are generally harmful.
65) I believe that people have communicated with plants or plant devas at Findhorn; I believe people can communicate with plants and animals; I believe the things we find in The Secret Life of Plants; I think it would be nice to see or communicate with the fairies, devas, etc. I believe that there are spiritual beings which are not necessarily angels, but which do things like grow plants
or garden.
66) I believe that nudity and sexual information is generally not harmful to minors, that nudity at the Fremont Solstice parade does no harm and does good. One of my acquaintances/friends, when she was five, walked in on her parents having sex and certainly reports no trauma or harm from the experience; I do not believe she was harmed. This is not to say that I encourage adults to randomly exposure 5-year-old girls to sex, but sometimes more harm is done by the reactions of adults to learning of it than the experience of seeing sex itself. Moreover, one NDE account seems to imply exactly this in one case of a child unable to understand the reaction of parent coming unglued.
67) in some of these questions re 66 and 64, the wise answer is
what is according to nature cannot be wrong.
and last but not least, in honor of The Amityville Horror,
68) I believe the Amityville Horror story.

Boomeister

Wow, what a long post. I must confess I didn't read it all. I skimmed it.
You seem to believe the basic tenets of Christianity, so I think most Christians would believe you are a Christian even if you have some beliefs that differ from theirs.
The extreme fundamentalist would question your Christianity.
You have a lot of detailed beliefs. I agree, you don't always have to share them. Many of them are on a "need to know" basis, in other words, by sharing them, it could help someone or can build more understanding between you and another.
I think it's good that you have a mind of your own.
If there is a God, He/she/it gave you a brain. Keep using it.

Boomeister

Boomeister

How did you friend respond to this?

Boomeister

Zeichman

Absolutely great post. I disagree with you on several points (generally: the nature of sin, how universalism occurs, intentions of Paul and GJohn, and I find child pornography unacceptable), but the agreement between you and I is enough that I greatly enjoyed your thoughts.

How, if I may ask, is the cleansing of the temple historically impossible?

IvanJames

You view sexual photos of minors??? That's a crime, and fucking sick as well. Boot me for life for saying so, I have to say it.

<edited to add: Your statement to this effect rendered your entire post completely useless to me. You obviously have much bigger problems than which cosmic boogieman to believe in.>

Stepfather of 4,

---Ivan James

sMacK

To be fair, this was not stated in the OP. Key word, sexual.

IvanJames

16) I don't believe God is offended by Indian erotic temple art; I think it is OK to enjoy erotic art;
I visit strip clubs once in a while; I view nudes; I view nudes of minors.

The first three <edited: no wait...Indian art, erotic art, nudes, strippers...make that 4!> are great. Totally great!

The last is, in fact, a federal crime...one that I'm particularly concerned about. If the poster wishes to posit a condition in which a child is not victimised by posing nude for a photo or painting, I'm all ears.

Look, I'm an artist and a stepfather (divorce doesn't change THAT!), and I really can't imagine anything other than, say, a snapshot of mom giving baby a bath, or 2-yr-old junior thought it would be funny as hell to toss his undies away and run around the house like a maniac, as being innocent.

What gives us such a strong drive to protect our kiddies? Evolution, of course!

---Ivan James

Amaleq13

This is a Biblical Criticism and History forum and discussions not relevant to that broad topic are inappropriate. I'm locking this thread while discussions take place regarding the legalities of the content.

Mediancat

This thread has been reopened. Keep things civil.

The line regarding the controversial topic is and always has been: you may argue that something shouldn't be illegal, or is in fact good, but you may not ask for advice on or encourage others how to commit any illegal activity.

This is not specifying that such has already taken place, and is just a precaution.

Rob aka Mediancat

Bright Life

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with y'all here, mmmkay?

I have reference books in my collection (I'm an artist) that include naked pictures of children. They are often posed with their parents, always in non-pruient ways. Judging from the lack of tan lines, I'm guessing the whole bunch are regular nudists. So, they're being naked, in general, is in no way unusual, sexual, or wrong, IMO.

And even though Wal*Fart will report you to the police for nude pics of your infant in the tub, it's still not illegal. It just causes a lot of trouble in our society, given the prevelence of sexual predators in our midst.

Of course we should protect our children from such people (and from Wal*Fart, for that matter). But...the naked body is not the problem. It's nothing to be ashamed of or hide. It's what sicko adults do to kids that is the problem. And whether they have pics or not, those folks will continue to be a problem.