Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Xrikcus · 08-09-2004, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Since all of this would have still happened way before our time, you would STILL have to rely on word of mouth.

You do have a point there, I'll give you that. It doesn't change the fact that it is to be expected that people wouldn't all believe though, it is unfair to assume they would.

inquisitive01 · 08-09-2004, 05:41 PM

Okay, this is for anyone. IF 25 people happened to see a message on the moon, say, lasting for 15 minutes, that CLEARLY said "God is with you always" (not just some atmospheric, crater effect of something), and then they advertised this to the other 6 billion or so people on the planet, how many would truly believe this word of mouth, EVEN IF pictures (not faked pictures) were taken that CLEARLY showed this message? I'll tell you. Many people (likely the majority) would come to the conclusions/reasons such as follows:

1). Atmospheric effect.
2). The 25 people must have had previous mental problems.
3). They must be missing something in those pictures (i.e., they MUST be fake and this MUST be a hoax).

Etc., etc.

In short, I personally don't think it would matter one bit whether what was/is seen is from Bible times OR from today.

Amaleq13 · 08-09-2004, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

...lasting for 15 minutes...

Why the limited duration?

Personally, I would tend to accept something like an arrangement of the stars to form words or sentences in Hebrew as pretty compelling evidence of the reality of the God described in the Bible.

I think an excellent one would be a huge cleared area with only the Hebrew for "I am" in the middle. That would get me into the nearest Temple every Saturday. Add another clearing on the other side of the sky with "Jesus was my Son and your Savior" and I'm in church every Sunday, amigo. :angel:

Chili · 08-09-2004, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

In short, I personally don't think it would matter one bit whether what was/is seen is from Bible times OR from today.

But that is because we know more about God and the art of Godmanship than you think.

inquisitive01 · 08-09-2004, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Why the limited duration?

Personally, I would tend to accept something like an arrangement of the stars to form words or sentences in Hebrew as pretty compelling evidence of the reality of the God described in the Bible.

I think an excellent one would be a huge cleared area with only the Hebrew for "I am" in the middle. That would get me into the nearest Temple every Saturday. Add another clearing on the other side of the sky with "Jesus was my Son and your Savior" and I'm in church every Sunday, amigo. :angel:

Yet MUCH, MUCH LESS has to happen to get people to meet in a bar on a Friday or Saturday (just chose those days since they occur during the "weekend"), attend a major sporting event, etc.
We don't question this anywhere near as much, though. :huh:

SLD · 08-09-2004, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

I have recently shed my hardcore fundamentalist beliefs, and lot of my friends are avidly trying to pull me back in. I have spent a great deal of time and effort studying as much information as possible so when my friends ask me lame questions I can give them an answer. I argued down a friend and he left me with a statement I could not answer to. How relevant this issue is I am not entirely sure but here goes. He said to me "There is no other religion where God would send His son to die for us." He then goes on to tell me that is his only reason for staying with Christianity, despite what critics say about the Bible, history, etc.

My question is this: Is he just ignorant or does he know what he is talking about? Are there other religions, ancient or other, that follow a similar pattern of Christianity with God sending his only son to earth to save humanity? Any help would be much appreciated.

I'll just quote you one of my favorite points from Thomas Paine:

Quote:

The story of the redemption will not stand examination. That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ, is the strangest system of religion ever set up.
-- Thomas Paine

And while there are no other religions, at least none that we've discovered, that are exactly like Christianity. There are interesting similarites between Christianity and older pagan mystery religions, including the concept of a son of god, born of a god-female union, and later being killed. Dionysus in particular comes to mind. The eucharist itself clearly predates Christianity and is even mentioned by Cicero.

SLD

WCH · 08-09-2004, 09:02 PM

Lord Krishna dies saving the people... it isn't exactly the same, as he dies in battle (kills a tyrant and, at the same time, is killed himself), but it's still a symbol of sacrifice.

inquisitive01 · 08-09-2004, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLD

I'll just quote you one of my favorite points from Thomas Paine:

Quote:
The story of the redemption will not stand examination. That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ, is the strangest system of religion ever set up.
-- Thomas Paine

Where'd Thomas Paine get that misled idea?

QUOTE: "...That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ... blah, blah, blah.

Man redeems himself by asking forgiveness for past sins, accepting Jesus Christ as the Savior and following His teachings, AND by repenting (a true attempt to sin no more, NOT an attempt to trick God into believing you are sincere).

inquisitive01 · 08-10-2004, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Where'd Thomas Paine get that misled idea?

QUOTE: "...That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ... blah, blah, blah.

Man redeems himself by asking forgiveness for past sins, accepting Jesus Christ as the Savior and following His teachings, AND by repenting (a true attempt to sin no more, NOT an attempt to trick God into believing you are sincere).

Any clues (about where Thomas Paine got this misled idea) yet? :huh:

Hobbs · 08-10-2004, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Any clues (about where Thomas Paine got this misled idea) yet? :huh:

I didn't post the quote, but I'd answer:

I don't know. It looks like maybe he was either misinformed or disingenuous.

Now, why do you disagree with the biblical doctrine that Jesus's substitutionary sacrificial death had something to do with salvation, as clearly laid out in Romans? Do you agree with me that accepting the sacrifice (i.e. execution) of an innocent person in the place of the guilty person is a horrible injustice that no good god would ever accept, much less offer?

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08-09-2004, 05:41 PM	#22
inquisitive01 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: East U.S.A. Posts: 883	Okay, this is for anyone. IF 25 people happened to see a message on the moon, say, lasting for 15 minutes, that CLEARLY said "God is with you always" (not just some atmospheric, crater effect of something), and then they advertised this to the other 6 billion or so people on the planet, how many would truly believe this word of mouth, EVEN IF pictures (not faked pictures) were taken that CLEARLY showed this message? I'll tell you. Many people (likely the majority) would come to the conclusions/reasons such as follows: 1). Atmospheric effect. 2). The 25 people must have had previous mental problems. 3). They must be missing something in those pictures (i.e., they MUST be fake and this MUST be a hoax). Etc., etc. In short, I personally don't think it would matter one bit whether what was/is seen is from Bible times OR from today.

08-09-2004, 09:02 PM	#27
WCH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 6,290	Lord Krishna dies saving the people... it isn't exactly the same, as he dies in battle (kills a tyrant and, at the same time, is killed himself), but it's still a symbol of sacrifice.

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