Anat

If they did not leave the very same day, what was the point of "And thus shall ye eat it: with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste--it is the LORD'S passover." (verse 11)? And why is Passover Seder held on the eve of the 15th of Nisan?

Sheshbazzar

You understand of course that although their "loins (were) girded, shoes on (their) feet and (their) staff in hand", they were absolutely forbidden to go outside of the houses that they were eating Passover in untill the morning, and when they did go out that morning, they had a LOT of work (preparation) waiting for them. Wherefore it is called "the Jew's preparation day, for the Sabbath"
Rabbinical interpretation had succeeded in getting the sacrificial ritual moved to late afternoon on 14th day of the month, with the Seder held in the evening of the 15th, violating both the letter and the spirit of the Law, However this move was foreknown and accommodated for by the very breadth of the time that was actually encompassed within the Word of the Law,
that the Passover lamb be sacrificed, NOT "at even" or "at twilight" but specifically "between the evenings".
Thus was the Lamb of YAH sacrificed "between the evenings" on the 14th day of Abib, fulfilling the letter of the Law.

Chili

Don't let me disturb you Sheshbazzar but only 6 of the seven days had evening follow the day and that clearly indicates that evening does not have to follow the day. The days are to be taken as 24 hour periods but that is only done to show the element of time in human life which ends on the sixth day where the 'Egyptian' died wherefore evening prevailed and the light of common day did not return. The 'great gather' shows that sanity prevailed after the Egyptian died which must be true if it was a spiritual delivery. The "borrowed" riches they took from Egypt just shows that their life in Egypt was an illusion (temporal as opposed to now eternal).

The hard labor means that it is an enormous overcoming and therefore the loins girted, shoes on, and staff in hand with Passover being limited to recollecting the past . . . which is the great gather itself (no bible study).

Sheshbazzar

Given all of the preceding information in the Book of Nehemiah, a "Sabbath Day" that was 32 hours in length would have been intolerable to the populace, Whom if as you pointed out before, consisted mainly of a conglomeration of polytheists, who were only marginally or not at all, devotees or followers of the the 'new' monotheistic Yahwist cult that had arisen in their midst.
And whom at best were only tolerating the leadership of Ezra and Nehemiah for whatever they could gain by it in their greedy commercial transactions. (Neh.13:15-18)
Nehemiah placing restrictions on their business transactions on The Sabbath Day would have been barely tolerable, but to attempt to cut off all commerce for 32 hours out of every week, (plus upon all of the "New"(months) and "High" Sabbaths in addition) would have resulted in an armed rebellion.
For the attitude of Israel was well expressed by the word of Yah-Yahweh, Saying, "Hear this , you who trample the needy, and 'do away' with the poor of the land,
Saying, When will the New (month) be over that we may sell grain,
And The Sabbath be ended that we may market wheat? skimping the measure, and boosting the price, and cheating with dishonest scales."
Amos 8:5
There would have been a bloody insurrection had Nehemiah attempted to keep the gates shut for an entire 36 hours on each of The Sabbaths, as it was the gates were demanded to be reopened at the end of The Sabbath, so that commerce could be transacted far into the nights on the first days of the weeks.

spin

Uh-huh.

1. You have avoided explaining what you consider BYN H(RBYM actually meant in the context of the time when the pesach lamb should be slaughtered.
2. You avoided the implications of not leaving anything for the morning. Why not until the evening, if you thought the first day of unleavened bread started in the evening?? Obviously, the day started in the morning and one couldn't consume of the lamb on the first day of unleavened bread.
3. Of course in your sophistry you omit that (RB is there in the plural. (And I transcribed wrongly: ( is an AYIN.)

You don't find anything strange with the notion that the Yom Kippur, which is on the 10th of the month, actually starts on the evening of the 9th?? ie there is a normal day structure on which this feast is superimposed from the previous evening, that of the 9th, for 24 hours until the following evening, that of the 10th? If you had it your way, by some miracle, the 10th would actually be the 9th.

Days go from morning to morning. Yom Kippur was a feast which started in the evening, just as we have Xmas Eve.

The Hebrew bible clearly underlines the fact that the day began at night. You haven't dealt with Gen 1. You have squirmed on the other examples I gave and you hoped Lev 23 would absolve you of your responsibility to deal with the reality. So, let's go back to the text:

Gen 19:33-34 And they made their father drink wine that night. And the first-born went in, and lay with her father; and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the following day that the firstborn said to the younger, Behold I lay last night with my father: let us make him drink wine tonight and you go and lie with him that we may preserve the seed of our father.

Can you explain this any better with your theory that the day began in the evening? Perhaps you have a different definition for )M$? The following day after "last night" would normally be taken that they are talking the morning after about what happened last night and what they plan for the coming night.

Ex 16:23 And he said to them: 'This is what the Lord has spoken: Tomorrow is a solemn rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake, and boil what you will boil; and all that remains put aside for you to be kept until the morning.

Isn't the morning here the start of tomorrow?

Lev 22:30 On the same day it shall be eaten; you shall leave none of it until the morning

Umm, the morning is not part of the same day, but the day after, right?

Num 16:5-7 And [Moses] spoke to Korah and to all his company, saying: 'In the morning the LORD will show who are His, and who is holy, and will cause him to come near unto Him; even him whom He may choose will He cause to come near unto Him. Do this: take censors, Korah, and all your company; and put fire in them, and put incense upon them before the LORD tomorrow; and it shall be that the man whom the LORD doth choose, he shall be holy; ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.'

Moses equates morning BQR with the following day MHR.

Jdg 19:9 And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father-in-law, the damsel's father, said unto him: 'Behold, now the day draweth toward evening; stay, I pray you, all night; behold, the day grows to an end; lodge here, that thy heart may be merry; and tomorrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home.'

It says that the daylight part of the day draws to an end, night is coming, so stay until tomorrow, ie the following morning.

Jdg 21:2-4 The people stayed there .. until evening... 4 And next day the people rose early and built an altar...

1 Sa 19:11 If you do not escape with your life tonight, tomorrow you shall be slain.

More of the same. The night belongs to the day whose light it follows. This is the biblical norm.


spin

spin

Pretty rancid logic on your part. No-one but you is talking of a sabbath of 32 hours. What the text is talking about is that the gate should be shut the evening before the sabbath, when the gates began to get dark, -- there are 8 hours from evening till morning -- and that it should also be shut the entire sabbath. Neh 7:3 talks of the gates being opened on the heat of the sun and closed when the gatekeepers had finished their day, ie gates were normally shut in the evenings and opened in the mornings.

The sabbath is 24 hours long, plus the 8 hours the gate was shut the night before. Do you understand the arithmetic now?

Don't be histrionic. They didn't have electricity.


spin

Sheshbazzar

Dt 16:6 and Josh 5:10 along with Ex 11:4 and Ex 12:29 provide the interpretation of the phrase "beyn ha'-ereb'eem",- "between the evenings" that ends the commandment of Exodus 12:6, IN THAT FIRST 'PASSOVER' the blood must be upon the door-posts before midnight of the 14th day of the first month.
(not necessary or practiced at any latter Passover commemoration)
I stated in my initial post in this thread, that I consider for the commandments and instructions regarding the sacrificial lamb to be carried out as given in Exodus 12, the lamb would need be killed and roasted in the evening of the 14th day of Abib, not before sunset, and not before the 312th hour in that year, and that in that first passover, the blood must be upon the door-posts and lintel before the 318th hour in that year, so that death would pass over that household at midnight of the evening of the fourteenth day. I have from the beginning given a very precise "context of the time", even right to the hour.
Our difference is in 'when' that 14th day began and ended.
So you begin days in the "morning" at "sunrise", how many hours do you calculate it then to be from the beginning of the first day of the year unto the "evening of the fourteenth day"? and how many hours till the "midnight" of that day?

Anat

Sheshbazzar, so you think the Jewish religious authorities at some point changed the time of the Passover celebration, but you don't think they could have changed the way days are calculated?

If the days of creation started in the evening, what marked the beginning of the first day?

Sheshbazzar

This is simply an argument from assertion, where is your proof of
"-there are 8 hours from evening till morning--"
and of "the 8 hours the gate was shut the night before." ?
please cite the texts that prove these assertions.

While you may have made your arithmetic clear, This reply does nothing to address the 'problem' Nehemiah would have encountered from the "commercial interests" had he engaged in regularly closing the gates for 36 hours at a time out of every week to these polytheistic traders.
That didn't keep Paul from speaking all night on the first day of the week.
in Acts 20:7-11, and a good many of other activities that took place during the night time throughout the Scriptures.

spin

Is this the best you can do? Duck everything that shows the day began in the morning in biblical times and then base an argument on a self-confessed Pharisee in post-biblical times??

You don't seem to know how to read Nehemiah. The gates normally got closed at night, as I've shown. The gates were also closed throughout the sabbath day. So, the gates were closed from the night before to the morning after. Bleeding about how that would have affected the traders is ridiculous.

How long the evening was is also another red herring. You're doing extremely poorly, defending your Pharisaic day.


spin