Sheshbazzar

A minor point that is related to the thread "Number and Measure",
"the fourteenth day" begins at the end of the thirteenth day, at "even" and extends to the "even" following, which begins "the fifteenth day"
The original Passover took place on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month, and the blood needed to be "on the two side-posts, and on the upper door-post of the houses" before the "midnight" of that fourteenth day when Death's angel passed over (there is only one "midnight" that is on the fourteenth day)

"and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning"

"This is that NIGHT of Yahweh to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations",

"And it came to pass, that at midnight Yahweh smote all of the first-born in the land of Egypt,"

"And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow after the passover sacrifice; the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians". (in the daylight portion of "the fifteenth day".)

To summarize, for the passover lamb to be sacrificed in accord with the instructions, it was to be selected "In the tenth day of this month",
(that is not before the end of the ninth day, or the passing of two hundred and sixteen hours of that month, and no latter than the end of the tenth day, or the passing of two hundred and forty hours of that first month.)

"And you shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings".
(The lamb was to be killed on the evening of the fourteenth day, not before the end of thirteen days, or before the passing of three hundred twelve hours into that month, and the blood had to be upon the door-posts before "midnight", before three hundred and eighteen hours into that month.)

"and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning"
(no one was to leave their house until the the morning of the fourteenth day, not before the end of the twelfth hour in that 'day', nor before the end of the three hundred and twenty fourth hour in that month)

"And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow after the passover sacrifice; the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians".
(The Fifteenth Day of the first month, began at the end of the fourteenth day of the first month, and extended from the end of the three hundred and thirty sixth hour until the end of the three hundred and sixtieth hour)

And all of these were further divided into "watches", and "courses" every hour was within a "watch" and within a "course", throughout every day, of every week, of every month, of every year, and in the "Sabbaths of years", so all were named and numbered.

"These are the Feasts of Yahweh, Holy convocations which you shall proclaim in their seasons.
The fourteenth day of the first month, at evening, Yahweh's passover lamb is to be offered.
And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened (bread) unto Yahweh;
Seven days you must eat unleavened (bread), In the first day you shall have an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein."

This was the "High Sabbath" that followed the crucifixion, that is now commonly thought and taught by Christianity to be the 'seventh day' Sabbath rest.
The "time map" presented in the "Number and Measure" also lays out the 'seven possibilities' for which day of the week that year began on, and which days and dates the events in the NT took place, only one of the seven lines fits the details provided.

spin

This assumes that the writer of GMark, who was in all probability writing in Rome, was following the Pharisaic tradition of days ending in the evening. In the Hebrew bible the day ended in the morning (eg Gen 1 God created during the day, then there was evening and morning, and the day is completed).

This is all mistaken regarding times. Ex 12:6 says that the pesach lamb shall be kept until the 14th day, then the whole congregation shall slaughter it at dusk ()RB being setting of the sun). Nothing shall remain of the lamb in the morning, ie the new day, as anything left is to be burnt at dawn (BQR). The 15th day starts with the unleavened bread, hence nothing of the lamb was to be left after sunrise.

Numbers 33:3 tells us the Israelites went out on the 15th of the first month, which would not be the morning after the passover night, but 24 hours after that, if we followed Pharisaic reckoning.

(When David, in 1 Sam 30:17, attacked the Philistines "from morning (twilight) to evening of the next day", he's not waiting an extra 24 hours either. The day started in the morning in biblical literature.)

All of this changed with the Pharisees.


spin

Sheshbazzar

I made no reference to the "GMark",
Judaism is going to be surprised by your new definition of the Biblical day, after all of these millinea of observing the Holy Sabbaths from sunset to sunset, from the going down of the sun until the going down of the sun, being accounted as one Sabbath day.
Traditionally the Biblical day has been divided into two halves, the 'erev' being the night ("evening") and the 'boquer' being the daylight ("morning") the two parts together making up one 'yom' ("day") and as with the Sabbaths, so with all other days.

Spin, by now you should know better than using Loomis's methods of quoting the text of the Torah, as Exodus 12:6 most certainly does not say at [)RB] "at dusk", or "at twilight" or "at the setting of the sun"
What Exodus 12:6 DOES SAY is "beyn ha'-ereb'eem" or literally "between the evenings". as "ereb'eem" is the plural form of "ereb", only some 'creative interpretation' will make it to read anything else.
Whose reckoning are you following spin?
Creative spin, except my Torah, and my translations indicate that .
"David fought them from dusk until the evening of the next day" a period of approximately 24 hours, or one full Biblical days length, and the next day began at the evening of the next day, and that day also had 24 hours, not twelve. (evening until morning is only 12 hours)

Sheshbazzar

And of course Nehemiah 13:19 records how time, and the Sabbath was observed close to 500 years before "GMark" was even written;

"Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that you do, and profane The Sabbath day?
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our Elohim bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet you bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning The Sabbath.
And it came to pass, that, when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before The Sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after The Sabbath; and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on The Sabbath Day." Nehemiah 13:19
From sunset till sunset, not from morning till morning.

spin

Dumb. As I said, this is a Pharisaic change, ie it's two millennia old. Your rhetoric is toothless.

You should know better than this. The day is divided into YWM and LYL. The change from day to night is )RB (from the verb which means "to set"), while the change from night to day is BQR. If you want to be inexact, you'll continue to make errors.

The tradition you cite is Pharisaic.

You don't know what I know <deleted>. I don't take kindly to people, who make blunders like you do about the meanings of words like )RB and BQR, presuming to read my mind.

I simply cited the JPS translation for convenience.

I'm not really trying to make it read anything else. I'll just let you try and make sense of what the verse says from what is written. "And you shall slaughter it all the assembled congregation of Israel between the evenings." Go ahead. You might refer to Dt 16:6 which talks of the sacrifice being at sunset, as does Josh 5:10.

The Hebrew bible. Why don't you follow it?

Nothing creative about it at all. You're just spewing Pharisaic dicta.

Your Torah doesn't agree with you, though you might be referring to the old JPS translation, which agrees with you. The new one doesn't. You should update your tools. There is no reason to say from evening to evening using a different words to indicate "evening".

The word N$P, which means "twilight" can be seen in opposition to )RB in Job 7:4, but I suppose you'll try to claim that it meant he was in bed for an awful long time. Again in 1 Sam 30:17 N$P is in opposition to )RB, so it should be read the same way that the twilight was morning twilight. (In Ps 119:147 N$P is usually seen to indicate morning.)

We are left with N$P here implying morning -- one didn't usually attack at night anyway --, so we have a new day starting with morning. This is in line with Gen 1, which you conveniently forgot about. It's also in line with not leaving any of the pesach lamb until morning because the new day started the unleavened bread.

Your problem is that you are still retrojecting Pharisaic ideas into the Hebrew bible. You're not thinking about it: you're just repeating what you received, unanalysed.


spin

spin

This interpretation makes no sense.

Shut the gates before the sabbath, ie the evening before, as you normally do, and don't open them until the sabbath is over, ie the morning after. You shut gates in the evening, you don't open them.

The point of shutting the gate of course was to stop trafficking during the sabbath day. You normally shut gates in the evening and you open them in the morning, though not on the sabbath. It doesn't make sense to open them in the evening, so clearly the day finished in the morning, when the gates are opened. The gates are closed for 32 hours -- the night before to the morning after.


spin

Sheshbazzar

Dt 16:6 and Josh 5:10 along with Ex 11:4 and Ex 12:29 provide the interpretation of the phrase "beyn ha'-ereb'eem",- "between the evenings" that ends the commandment of Exodus 12:6, in that first 'Passover' the blood must be upon the door-posts before midnight of the 14th day of the first month.
Our difference is in 'when' that 14th day began and ended.
I notice you are not defending your earlier statement that the text of Ex. 12:8 uses the word )RB .
You are probably are aware by now that I can provide hundreds of verses where "beyn" is translated as "between", and that the form "ereb'eem" IS the plural form of "ereb", and that the text of Ex.12:6 DOES NOT use the form ")RB" - "ereb" singular.

Being very late here, I overlooked citing Leviticus 23:27-32

Lev 23:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.


Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.


Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.


Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.


Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.


Lev 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

The "tenth day" of this month, begins at the "even" of "the ninth day" and extends until the "even" that ends "the tenth day". This time period "from even unto even", (v.32) is designated "a day", (v.27) and "that same day" in v.28, and in v.30.
This is specific, and does not allow for the additional 12 hours that you would need to tack on to "the 10th day" in order to make it end in the "morning", to the start of your new day of the 11th.
Respectfully, Zerubabble

Anat

Sheshbazzar, I am trying to understand your scenario for the events of the Exodus and the Egypt Passover. From naive reading of Exodus 12, the lambs were slaughtered, blood placed on door side-posts and lintels, the meat roasted, people sat down to eat while already dressed for a journey. The firstborne of Egypt died at (or starting from) midnight of this very night. The Israelites started the first leg of their journey (Rameses to Succoth) after this - apparently with first morning light? (trying to reconcile 22 with 31) taking with them the unleavened dough, which they baked for breakfast in Succoth. (They must have had a batch of unleavened bread that they had already baked to eat with the roast at night - verse 8.) All these events happened within a single night, or the story doesn't make any sense. And it makes sense that the night in question was the one after the day of the 14th and before the day of the 15th (which is also the night on which the Seder is observed traditionally), yet the time is referred to as belonging to the 14th, not the 15th, supporting spin's claim of a day starting in the morning, at least for the events of the Exodus.

So are you saying the events in question took place over 2 consecutive nights rather than within one night? Or are you saying the Jews celebrate the Seder one night too late?

Chili

When the firstborn of Egypt died the light of morning failed to come to make this night last from the evening on the 14 until the morning of the 16. It shows that the light of common day is an illusion wherefore only evening can come and morning will follow to continue [temporal] life in this illusion.

A day is a day because "evening came" . . . and "morning followed" only because evening came. This becomes evident on the seventh day which is the day on which evening does not come and hence is the day on which eternal life is born. That morning never followed on high sabbath just means that the interpreter of the light of common day must die to end 'this' final day. I mean, we can't have eternal life if darkness (sin) keeps coming around now can we? But that is not for Jews to know.

Sheshbazzar

Anat, yes the verses that surround the commandments and regulations as to the time and manner of observing the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened, and what constitutes the boundaries of "the fourteenth day", and of "the fifteenth day" have been matters of controversy among the Jewish people since the time of the restoration under Ezra and Nehemiah.
For reasons such as this, the Law provided the Levitical Priesthood with the authority to make decisions as to how the Laws were to be interpreted and to be applied. (see Deut. 17:8-13) and unto whose authority all of Israel was to submit to. (17:11) One of the lasting inheritances of that given Authority is the definition of The Sabbath Day(s), that has remained in place in Judaism unto this day; Sabbaths were to be observed from "even until even" or from "the setting of the sun until the setting of the sun".

Many times it has been pointed out even in this forum that the 7 day week laid out in Genesis is to be taken as 7 literal 24 hour days, and the pattern was (is) "The evening and the morning were the first day," "the evening and the morning were the second day", "the evening and the morning were the third day", this was understood to indicate that the "evening" of a "day" precedes the "morning" of a "day" in each and every 24 hour "day", as it has since creation.

As spin pointed out in another thread, the majority of Israel were not monotheists, and had not before been observing the Laws of Yahweh, they no doubt also argued for a 'day' that extended from "sunrise until sunrise" or "morning until morning" and yes, there are a lot of verses that may so interpreted and understood. But the evidence of Scripture is rather unequivocal that that "even until even" was and yet is the standard for defining a Biblical day.
So yes, I am saying that the events took place over two consecutive nights, on the 14th night, no one was to go out of their door till morning; that injunction precludes them leaving Egypt during the night time of the 14th day, and when the sun was risen in the morning (still the 14th day) they had to gather up their "very much cattle" and load up all of the "great amount" of possessions that they had "borrowed" from the Egyptians.
Spiritually they had been "delivered", and "passed over" on the evening of the 14th, but with all of the preparations for the journey, (Hard to qualify as a Sabbath "rest" by any stretch) They did not depart from Ramses until 24 hours latter on the morning (daylight) of the 15th day of the month as is recorded in Num. 33:3.
It has also been acknowledged that even 24 hours is a "very small" window of time to prepare for the departure of such a great multitude of people and animals. (in fact one of the reasons to deny the veracity of the entire story, silly of an 'atheist' to argue the fine points of an event that he denies ever having taken place on any date at all)
Thus the day of Passover is a "remembrance" of being "passed over" on the 14th day of the first month "between the evenings", and is the day for preparing (laboring) for The 15th day, The High Sabbath commemorating the actual "going fourth" from Ramses.