Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HeretiKc · 04-26-2007, 03:08 AM

So yesterday, I got one of those e-mails from BAS, containing links to major stories of interest for the week. The second one was titled "A Slain Messiah? -- A Dead Sea Scrolls scholar believes he has identified the first historical figure to be called the Messiah ben Yosef (son of Joseph)." It linked to an editorial by one Israel Knohl, Professor of Biblical Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, who claims

Quote:

based on apocalyptic writings dating to this period [very late 1st century B.C.E.] ... certain groups believed the messiah would die, be resurrected in three days, and ascend to heaven (see "The Messiah Before Jesus," 27-42).

The "apocalyptic writing" he cites is "Hazon Gabriel" (Gabriel Revelation), a stone inscription, dated by several scholars to late first century BCE, the translation of which appeared in, I quote, "Cathedra magazine". Uh, I'm not seeing anything that indicates such a magazine exists... and I'm quite curious to see this paper. I e-mailed the author, asking if the paper would be available to the public soon, and am awaiting a response.

Here's the link to the editorial: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...?itemNo=850657

Quote:

Although Yardeni and Elitzur offer a fine reading of the text, in my opinion one of the most important words has not been properly deciphered. Line 80 begins with the phrase "Leshloshet yamin" ("In three days"), followed by another word that the editors could not read. Then comes the phrase "Ani Gavriel" ("I, Gabriel"). I believe that this "illegible" word is actually legible. It is the word "hayeh" (live), and that Gabriel the Archangel is giving orders to someone: "Leshloshet yamin hayeh" ("In three days, you shall live"). In other words, in three days, you shall return to life (compare "bedamaiyikh ha'ee" - translated as "in thy blood live" - in Ezekiel 16:6). The word "haye" (live) is written here with alef. Similar orthography appears in the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example in the Isaiah scroll, where the word "yakeh" (30:31) is written with an alef after the yod.

Malachi151 · 04-26-2007, 04:30 AM

I have "The Messiah Before Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk)". It's not a very good work, it's only real use being access to some relevant materials from the DSS. There is nothing in the pages mentioned that really shows that Jews held these ideas. The main work cited is the Oracle of Hystaspes, which comes down to us from 4th century writings, and was supposedly Persian in origin, though it was mentioned by 2nd century Christians as well.

I'd like to learn more about this as well though.

As I have been saying for a while, possibly the best evidence that would contradict the Jesus story would be a description of Jesus from before he supposedly lived.

Malachi151 · 04-26-2007, 08:45 AM

I also looked for more information on this supposed new find, but I can't find anything except for this one article that you have linked, and comments on that article.

I'd definitely like to know more about this and get a copy of the full translation.

HeretiKc · 04-26-2007, 12:19 PM

Ah, I got a reply this morning. Cathedra is "a magazine in Hebrew published in Jerusalem by Yad Ben Zvi."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I have "The Messiah Before Jesus". It's not a very good work, it's only real use being access to some relevant materials from the DSS.

Yeah, I get the impression that a bunch of his work is kind of speculative, and that perhaps he's seeing into things what he wants to see, and not what is really there.

Malachi151 · 04-26-2007, 12:25 PM

Well, I would like to get a copy of this, I wonder if that can be done? Do you have his e-mail? Even if we just get a scanned version of it, I can get it translated from Hebrew, or someone here could translate it. I'd definitely like to see it.

HeretiKc · 04-26-2007, 12:46 PM

His e-mail address is knohl (AT) mscc.huji.ac.il

He didn't address my question of whether the paper/translation was going to be available to the academic community... so I don't know what kind of luck you're going to have.

linwood · 07-07-2008, 08:45 PM

This "find" just hit the mainstream news yesterday.

Has anyone found a translation yet?

Toto · 07-08-2008, 12:19 AM

check this thread for updates and the translation.

Cesc · 07-08-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

As I have been saying for a while, possibly the best evidence that would contradict the Jesus story would be a description of Jesus from before he supposedly lived.

And this description would be found scattered throughout the entire OT... (which I think I remember you also pointing out several times in various other threads)

But if you specifically mean by "the Jesus story" the 3 days and resurrection, then how about Jonah in the whale as the "dependant source"?

I believe it could easily be argued that the Jonah story is a remnant of older myths (and connected with the Hercules/Hesione myth), ultimately deriving from the arcaic idea that the sun is swallowed by a big fish at sunset, as in the Vedas where the earth is a big fish swallowing the sun, if Im not mistaken.
The three days here arguably being originally the "death and resurrection" of the divine light, that is, winter solstice (as Oannes swallowed by Tiamat) or the dark moon passing by the sun for (2 or) 3 days each month before new moon. The moon's waning phase often being seen in ancient primitive cultures as being swallowed by a monster of darkness.

Quote:

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Quote:

Jonah 2:1-2 (NIV)
From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. He said: "In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.

The word "grave" is from the Hebrew "sheol"(?)
Translated in the KJV as "hell". And we all know the KJV is the most reliable translation in the modern market.

:redface:

stonewall1012 · 07-12-2008, 08:23 PM

Cesc: "I believe it could easily be argued that the Jonah story is a remnant of older myths"

The question is not wether Jonah is a remnant of "older myths" but whether or not the idea was foreign to the author of this "revelation" The story of Jonah and the whale is irrelevant here-it might have its ultimate root in "pagan belief" but by the 1st century it was fully assumed into Jewish thought. Meaning it doesn't need an external "source" to account for the belief in a resurrection.
I find this interesting...

Here we have a clear Jewish reference to someone dying and rising again after 3 days and instead of seeing this as a clear connection of Christianity to Judiasm some here choose to look the other way and proclaim in the face of what appears to be good evidence(still needs vaildated) that it still is connected to some pagan religious experience...

If this proves reliable, it needs more work obviously, it could radically change the way scholars understand 1 BCE Jewish apocoliptic literature.
This means that the idea of a resurrecting messiah might not be a foreign idea but quite possible an extention of Jewish thought.

This would make the early christian appologist more understandable... they percieved their new faith to simply be an extention of Judaism not some new fangled idea. This certainly gives creedence to thier belief... I find this interesting.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-26-2007, 04:30 AM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I have "The Messiah Before Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk)". It's not a very good work, it's only real use being access to some relevant materials from the DSS. There is nothing in the pages mentioned that really shows that Jews held these ideas. The main work cited is the Oracle of Hystaspes, which comes down to us from 4th century writings, and was supposedly Persian in origin, though it was mentioned by 2nd century Christians as well. I'd like to learn more about this as well though. As I have been saying for a while, possibly the best evidence that would contradict the Jesus story would be a description of Jesus from before he supposedly lived.

04-26-2007, 08:45 AM	#3
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I also looked for more information on this supposed new find, but I can't find anything except for this one article that you have linked, and comments on that article. I'd definitely like to know more about this and get a copy of the full translation.

04-26-2007, 12:25 PM	#5
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Well, I would like to get a copy of this, I wonder if that can be done? Do you have his e-mail? Even if we just get a scanned version of it, I can get it translated from Hebrew, or someone here could translate it. I'd definitely like to see it.

04-26-2007, 12:46 PM	#6
HeretiKc Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Memphis, Tennessee, U.S. Posts: 50	His e-mail address is knohl (AT) mscc.huji.ac.il He didn't address my question of whether the paper/translation was going to be available to the academic community... so I don't know what kind of luck you're going to have.

07-07-2008, 08:45 PM	#7
linwood Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 547	This "find" just hit the mainstream news yesterday. Has anyone found a translation yet?

07-08-2008, 12:19 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	check this thread for updates and the translation.

07-12-2008, 08:23 PM	#10
stonewall1012 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Marion Posts: 114	Cesc: "I believe it could easily be argued that the Jonah story is a remnant of older myths" The question is not wether Jonah is a remnant of "older myths" but whether or not the idea was foreign to the author of this "revelation" The story of Jonah and the whale is irrelevant here-it might have its ultimate root in "pagan belief" but by the 1st century it was fully assumed into Jewish thought. Meaning it doesn't need an external "source" to account for the belief in a resurrection. I find this interesting... Here we have a clear Jewish reference to someone dying and rising again after 3 days and instead of seeing this as a clear connection of Christianity to Judiasm some here choose to look the other way and proclaim in the face of what appears to be good evidence(still needs vaildated) that it still is connected to some pagan religious experience... If this proves reliable, it needs more work obviously, it could radically change the way scholars understand 1 BCE Jewish apocoliptic literature. This means that the idea of a resurrecting messiah might not be a foreign idea but quite possible an extention of Jewish thought. This would make the early christian appologist more understandable... they percieved their new faith to simply be an extention of Judaism not some new fangled idea. This certainly gives creedence to thier belief... I find this interesting.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.