Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bearlaker · 05-08-2005, 06:17 AM

Do any of you have a good way to counter this argument?
In another thread on another board, one poster wrote that no man can see god and live. I used http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/seen.html and she came back with the topic of my post. I used to believe this, so I know where she is coming from. Any help would be appreciated.

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-08-2005, 08:01 AM

I'm not sure I understand what her argument is. Are you saying that she's claiming that everyone who "saw God" in the OT was really seeing Jesus?

If so, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for that argument and the OT does not mention Jesus but, just for the hell of it, ask her what Stephen was looking at:

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
(Acts 7:55-56)

She can't use the Jesus excuse because Stephen saw Jesus and God. Tell her to stick that in her pipe and smoke it. :devil3:

Bearlaker · 05-08-2005, 08:40 AM

Yes, Diogenes, that is what she's saying. I'll try that verse, thank you!

Magus55 · 05-08-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I'm not sure I understand what her argument is. Are you saying that she's claiming that everyone who "saw God" in the OT was really seeing Jesus?

If so, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for that argument and the OT does not mention Jesus but, just for the hell of it, ask her what Stephen was looking at:

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
(Acts 7:55-56)

She can't use the Jesus excuse because Stephen saw Jesus and God. Tell her to stick that in her pipe and smoke it. :devil3:

Actually, Stephen saw Jesus and the glory of God. You are purely making an assumption that he physically saw the face of the Father. The scripture doesn't support your argument.

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-08-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Actually, Stephen saw Jesus and the glory of God. You are purely making an assumption that he physically saw the face of the Father. The scripture doesn't support your argument.

You're seriously going to split this hair?

It also says Stephen saw Jesus "at the right hand of God." Do you think he only saw a giant hand extending out of frame somewhere?

Chris Weimer · 05-08-2005, 06:03 PM

Magus55 - actually, you have no textual support whatsoever, only [edited nasty insults] dogmatic doctrine.

NOGO · 05-09-2005, 06:27 PM

Ezekiel saw god ...

Ezekiel 1:26
Now (AP)above the expanse that was over their heads there was something (AQ)resembling a throne, like (AR)lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a (AS)man.

27Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something (AT)like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him.

28As the appearance of the (AU)rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance Such was the appearance of the likeness of the (AV)glory of the LORD And when I saw it, I (AW)fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

05-08-2005, 06:17 AM	#1
Bearlaker Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Monroe, Utah Posts: 1,152	Jesus the god of the OT Do any of you have a good way to counter this argument? In another thread on another board, one poster wrote that no man can see god and live. I used http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/seen.html and she came back with the topic of my post. I used to believe this, so I know where she is coming from. Any help would be appreciated.

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05-08-2005, 08:01 AM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I'm not sure I understand what her argument is. Are you saying that she's claiming that everyone who "saw God" in the OT was really seeing Jesus? If so, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for that argument and the OT does not mention Jesus but, just for the hell of it, ask her what Stephen was looking at: But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56) She can't use the Jesus excuse because Stephen saw Jesus and God. Tell her to stick that in her pipe and smoke it. :devil3:

05-08-2005, 08:40 AM	#3
Bearlaker Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Monroe, Utah Posts: 1,152	Yes, Diogenes, that is what she's saying. I'll try that verse, thank you!

05-08-2005, 06:03 PM	#6
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Magus55 - actually, you have no textual support whatsoever, only [edited nasty insults] dogmatic doctrine.

05-09-2005, 06:27 PM	#7
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Ezekiel saw god ... Ezekiel 1:26 Now (AP)above the expanse that was over their heads there was something (AQ)resembling a throne, like (AR)lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a (AS)man. 27Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something (AT)like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. 28As the appearance of the (AU)rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance Such was the appearance of the likeness of the (AV)glory of the LORD And when I saw it, I (AW)fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

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