Roger Pearse

Thanks. I think this is a possible way of looking at the text.

Just as a general point: I don't believe that our opinions of what any ancient writer 'must' or 'must not' have included in his text are worth anything, tho.

It's remarkable what seems important to us that goes unnoticed by contemporary writers. James Woodforde's "Diary of a Country Parson", writing during the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, barely mentions any of the 'great events'. This is the more surprising when you realise he was a Norfolk clergyman, and Lord Nelson was a Norfolk man. Yet we would learn nothing of this from Woodforde.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Hello Iasion,

Many thanks for your note. I haven't seen all the posts in this thread, so I apologise if I missed anything of significance. I don't generally have access to II during the week, but am at home today.

I'm not sure why you thought I was insulting you: I was talking generally. Sorry if that came across as a calculated insult.

Many thanks.

Photius says the Jews commonly do this, in his time. We could speculate on how this is so, but of course I am no better informed than anyone else. A look at the textual history of the mentions of Jesus in the Talmud might throw some light on it, perhaps?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Someone asked about the rest of Photius.

The Bibliotheca is a vast work which has never been entirely translated into English (a complete French translation does exist). However codices 1-165 were translated by J.H.Freese, and this is now in the public domain. The text is
here.

In addition I translated 166-180, 188-191, 232-3, and 263-265 from French, and Andrew Smith did 224. These are all accessible here. But since the French text is in copyright, the publishers wouldn't let me place my translations in the public domain.

A list of all the codices, translated or not, is here. It testifies to the remarkable array of books still available in Constantinople in the 9th century, since many of them are lost. In many cases Photius must have read the last remaining copy.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

RUmike

If Jesus existed he was likely an artisan from 1st century Galilee. There is no reason to think such a person would be literate.

Julian

Nope, I missed that one. I shall check it out, thanks. BTW, you need some more traffic on your board.

Julian

dark empathy

some one in another forum brought up Magisteral Documents, recording the 'trial' and death of jesus.

also l'Archivo di vaticano.

can anyone corroborate this?

FatherMithras

They don't exist^

The fact that they should exist if there actually was a trial leads them to assume they do and cite them. In reality they don't.

Steven Avery

Hi emp...
There are really two distinct issues (at least two).

a) References in the first centuries to such documents. Perhaps Roger has an article on that, or someone else here. I would want to do the topic properly, and that takes a bit of checking.

b) Claims to have such documents today, including the quite dubious Archko writings. Similar situation, my writings on same are back a bit, so I'll pass on digging up info at the moment.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Roger Pearse

This sounds very much like a reference to the "Archko volume". This was a forgery perpetrated on a group of rural Christians by a presbyterian minister named W.D.Mahan in 1884, who was investigated by his denomination and then suspended. Mahan claimed to have visited the Vatican library and a library in Constantinople and obtained the documents which he had translated.

It sold so well that some booksellers have kept it in print ever since to milk that target. (Other forgeries to exploit other target audiences also exist in most language groups).

E.J.Goodspeed, Strange New Gospels

M.R.James, A Mare's Nest from Missouri

A useful web page on the key point

I have copies of the first edition (1884) and the second, and can confirm Goodspeed's story that "Eli and the Story of the Magi" was removed. This 'document' according to Goodspeed is largely plagiarised from the novel "Ben Hur." I have also done a search for the "great scholars" McIntosh and Twyman and found that no-one of that name was publishing books in the US or UK in the period in which they are supposed to have existed. I can also tell you that the supposed Vatican shelfmark for "Valleus Paterculus" is bogus, since the collection is not thus organised.

Think of it as an 1884 version of the "Da Vinci Code."

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Chris Weimer

I know I need traffic there! Where are you at and why don't you post more often?