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Old 12-30-2011, 06:59 AM   #1
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Default Primordial Sex--Eden as allegory

In the following, I shall advance the thesis that the story of Adam and Eve is built upon a common domestic issue. The story illustrates the parental admonition that young people should not engage in sex just because they have reached the age that allows them to do so. I also maintain that the literary genre of the work is an allegory where persons and places are symbolic. The allegory probably stems from Israel’s wisdom tradition which produced the allegory in found in Qoheleth 12:1ff. Also, the sexual content of the story is a topic that the wisdom tradition addressed as shown by the Song of Songs and by the book of Proverbs.

We begin with the plot development in which the couple move from not knowing to knowing they are naked. Not knowing that they were naked is how the narrative describes the innocence of childhood. Young children are not ashamed of nakedness. Accordingly, Yahweh plays the role of a parent, instructing his children in what to avoid.

What about the tree of the knowledge of good and bad? The meaning of the phrase, “good and bad” seems to hold the same meaning as it does with regard to a certain Barzillai:

I am now eighty years old; can I tell the good from the bad? Has your servant any taste for his food and drink? Can I still hear the voices of men and women singers? Why should your servant be a further burden to my lord the king? (2 Sam 19:36)

Barzillai’s problem is that his sense of taste and hearing are dulled due to old age. Understood in this way, the primordial pair and Barzillai are the same. Old age is a kind of second innocence. Knowing good and bad describes sexually active adult life that occurs between youthful innocence and desensitized old age. It also describes God, for to be like God is to know good and bad. The transition from childhood to adulthood is also described as “being wise” as opposed to being naive, a contrast that is often drawn in Proverbs.

The snake, perhaps originally thought to be a lizard with legs, symbolizes Adam’s phallus with an erection, erect as the serpent originally was. Eating of the tree of knowledge represents intercourse. That a fruit should represent this is shown by the erotic image fruit has in the Song of Solomon. After eating the fruit, the couple are found to have acquired carnal knowledge, instantly changed from innocent, virgin children to into sexually active “adults.” Their punishment for “not waiting” is described in terms of teenagers forced to premature parenthood. Adam will have to get a difficult job to support his family and Eve will become pregnant and will have the bear the pains of childbirth and bear the responsibilities of motherhood. Furthermore, they have now become mortal, subject to death. It is this motif that lifts the story to a “cosmic” level. As for the tree of life and its celestial guardian, this appears to be an addition to the story as is the insertion of the description of the four rivers thought to flow from Eden.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:48 AM   #2
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In the following, I shall advance the thesis that the story of Adam and Eve is built upon a common domestic issue.
//

As for the tree of life and its celestial guardian, this appears to be an addition to the story as is the insertion of the description of the four rivers thought to flow from Eden.
How about just the creation of the ego awareness in the Tree of Knowledge made known in the "no shame-shame" complex that only exists in the conscious mind? (cf Gen2:25 and Gen.3:7).

And then Gen.2:10-14 shows the path of salvation already in place before it happened in Gen.3, wherein the first 2 rivers 'wind throughout' as if in search for happiness' while the third river just 'rises' in the East as the place we first left behind to which we return and the there the Eu-prhates shall find?
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:31 AM   #3
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Default Mot ego awareness

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In the following, I shall advance the thesis that the story of Adam and Eve is built upon a common domestic issue.
//

As for the tree of life and its celestial guardian, this appears to be an addition to the story as is the insertion of the description of the four rivers thought to flow from Eden.
How about just the creation of the ego awareness in the Tree of Knowledge made known in the "no shame-shame" complex that only exists in the conscious mind? (cf Gen2:25 and Gen.3:7).

And then Gen.2:10-14 shows the path of salvation already in place before it happened in Gen.3, wherein the first 2 rivers 'wind throughout' as if in search for happiness' while the third river just 'rises' in the East as the place we first left behind to which we return and the there the Eu-prhates shall find?
Note that they covered their genitals, not their egos. I should mention that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one Enkidu, who lives among animals, becomes alienated from them after having sex with a harlot.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:53 AM   #4
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In the following, I shall advance the thesis that the story of Adam and Eve is built upon a common domestic issue. The story illustrates the parental admonition that young people should not engage in sex just because they have reached the age that allows them to do so. I also maintain that the literary genre of the work is an allegory where persons and places are symbolic. The allegory probably stems from Israel’s wisdom tradition which produced the allegory in found in Qoheleth 12:1ff. Also, the sexual content of the story is a topic that the wisdom tradition addressed as shown by the Song of Songs and by the book of Proverbs.

We begin with the plot development in which the couple move from not knowing to knowing they are naked. Not knowing that they were naked is how the narrative describes the innocence of childhood. Young children are not ashamed of nakedness. Accordingly, Yahweh plays the role of a parent, instructing his children in what to avoid.

What about the tree of the knowledge of good and bad? The meaning of the phrase, “good and bad” seems to hold the same meaning as it does with regard to a certain Barzillai:

I am now eighty years old; can I tell the good from the bad? Has your servant any taste for his food and drink? Can I still hear the voices of men and women singers? Why should your servant be a further burden to my lord the king? (2 Sam 19:36)

Barzillai’s problem is that his sense of taste and hearing are dulled due to old age. Understood in this way, the primordial pair and Barzillai are the same. Old age is a kind of second innocence. Knowing good and bad describes sexually active adult life that occurs between youthful innocence and desensitized old age. It also describes God, for to be like God is to know good and bad. The transition from childhood to adulthood is also described as “being wise” as opposed to being naive, a contrast that is often drawn in Proverbs.

The snake, perhaps originally thought to be a lizard with legs, symbolizes Adam’s phallus with an erection, erect as the serpent originally was. Eating of the tree of knowledge represents intercourse. That a fruit should represent this is shown by the erotic image fruit has in the Song of Solomon. After eating the fruit, the couple are found to have acquired carnal knowledge, instantly changed from innocent, virgin children to into sexually active “adults.” Their punishment for “not waiting” is described in terms of teenagers forced to premature parenthood. Adam will have to get a difficult job to support his family and Eve will become pregnant and will have the bear the pains of childbirth and bear the responsibilities of motherhood. Furthermore, they have now become mortal, subject to death. It is this motif that lifts the story to a “cosmic” level. As for the tree of life and its celestial guardian, this appears to be an addition to the story as is the insertion of the description of the four rivers thought to flow from Eden.
Instead of trying to find Eden, it would be better to find peace. The world would be a lot better to busy themselves with productive businesses.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:18 AM   #5
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Default Incest Taboo in Story

Hi barre,

The harlot that Enkidu had sex with was the priestess Shamhat. She educates him through sex so he is no longer an animal.

Nice analysis of the Adam and Eve story. It does reflect a parent punishing his children for having sex. I think we need to examine the incest element that have been suppressed in the story. The transgression of the son being kicked out of family land for simply having sex is a ridiculous one. Only if he had transgressed the incest taboo and had forbidden sex with his mother, the Lord's wife/mistress/concubine would the son have gotten kicked out. The snake is obviously the boy's penis and the apple may be the mother's breast.
The creation of Adam from Eve's rib or side is a deliberate reversal to hide the incest theme. In the original, Adam, would have come from Eve's womb. The creation of Eve from Adam's side is a double reversal to hide the birth of Adam from his mother's womb.
Adam does treat Eve more like a sister than a mother, but this probably reflects the fact that landlords often preferred young girls (12 or 13 year olds) to impregnate during that time. By the time Adam reached the age of puberty when the story takes place, she would have been only in her early 20's and seemed more of sister to him.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

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How about just the creation of the ego awareness in the Tree of Knowledge made known in the "no shame-shame" complex that only exists in the conscious mind? (cf Gen2:25 and Gen.3:7).

And then Gen.2:10-14 shows the path of salvation already in place before it happened in Gen.3, wherein the first 2 rivers 'wind throughout' as if in search for happiness' while the third river just 'rises' in the East as the place we first left behind to which we return and the there the Eu-prhates shall find?
Note that they covered their genitals, not their egos. I should mention that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one Enkidu, who lives among animals, becomes alienated from them after having sex with a harlot.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barre View Post
In the following, I shall advance the thesis that the story of Adam and Eve is built upon a common domestic issue. The story illustrates the parental admonition that young people should not engage in sex just because they have reached the age that allows them to do so. I also maintain that the literary genre of the work is an allegory where persons and places are symbolic. The allegory probably stems from Israel’s wisdom tradition which produced the allegory in found in Qoheleth 12:1ff. Also, the sexual content of the story is a topic that the wisdom tradition addressed as shown by the Song of Songs and by the book of Proverbs.

We begin with the plot development in which the couple move from not knowing to knowing they are naked. Not knowing that they were naked is how the narrative describes the innocence of childhood. Young children are not ashamed of nakedness. Accordingly, Yahweh plays the role of a parent, instructing his children in what to avoid.

What about the tree of the knowledge of good and bad? The meaning of the phrase, “good and bad” seems to hold the same meaning as it does with regard to a certain Barzillai:

I am now eighty years old; can I tell the good from the bad? Has your servant any taste for his food and drink? Can I still hear the voices of men and women singers? Why should your servant be a further burden to my lord the king? (2 Sam 19:36)

Barzillai’s problem is that his sense of taste and hearing are dulled due to old age. Understood in this way, the primordial pair and Barzillai are the same. Old age is a kind of second innocence. Knowing good and bad describes sexually active adult life that occurs between youthful innocence and desensitized old age. It also describes God, for to be like God is to know good and bad. The transition from childhood to adulthood is also described as “being wise” as opposed to being naive, a contrast that is often drawn in Proverbs.

The snake, perhaps originally thought to be a lizard with legs, symbolizes Adam’s phallus with an erection, erect as the serpent originally was. Eating of the tree of knowledge represents intercourse. That a fruit should represent this is shown by the erotic image fruit has in the Song of Solomon. After eating the fruit, the couple are found to have acquired carnal knowledge, instantly changed from innocent, virgin children to into sexually active “adults.” Their punishment for “not waiting” is described in terms of teenagers forced to premature parenthood. Adam will have to get a difficult job to support his family and Eve will become pregnant and will have the bear the pains of childbirth and bear the responsibilities of motherhood. Furthermore, they have now become mortal, subject to death. It is this motif that lifts the story to a “cosmic” level. As for the tree of life and its celestial guardian, this appears to be an addition to the story as is the insertion of the description of the four rivers thought to flow from Eden.
Instead of trying to find Eden, it would be better to find peace. The world would be a lot better to busy themselves with productive businesses.
I am not trying to find a place mentioned in an allegorical myth. j Perhaps a proper understanding of this story will bring some peace to your soul.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:50 AM   #7
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Sometimes a snake is just a snake. . .
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Old 12-30-2011, 10:07 AM   #8
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Default An earlier version of the story?

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay View Post
Hi barre,

The harlot that Enkidu had sex with was the priestess Shamhat. She educates him through sex so he is no longer an animal.

Nice analysis of the Adam and Eve story. It does reflect a parent punishing his children for having sex. I think we need to examine the incest element that have been suppressed in the story. The transgression of the son being kicked out of family land for simply having sex is a ridiculous one. Only if he had transgressed the incest taboo and had forbidden sex with his mother, the Lord's wife/mistress/concubine would the son have gotten kicked out. The snake is obviously the boy's penis and the apple may be the mother's breast.
The creation of Adam from Eve's rib or side is a deliberate reversal to hide the incest theme. In the original, Adam, would have come from Eve's womb. The creation of Eve from Adam's side is a double reversal to hide the birth of Adam from his mother's womb.
Adam does treat Eve more like a sister than a mother, but this probably reflects the fact that landlords often preferred young girls (12 or 13 year olds) to impregnate during that time. By the time Adam reached the age of puberty when the story takes place, she would have been only in her early 20's and seemed more of sister to him.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:
Originally Posted by barre View Post

Note that they covered their genitals, not their egos. I should mention that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one Enkidu, who lives among animals, becomes alienated from them after having sex with a harlot.
Thanks for the comment on the harlot who turns out to be a temple prostitute it would seem. Is this your understanding also?
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Old 12-30-2011, 10:11 AM   #9
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Sometimes a snake is just a snake. . .
Most of the time . . . Sometimes a snake is a phallic symbol. What do you think is the case in this myth?
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Old 12-30-2011, 10:21 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by barre View Post
In the following, I shall advance the thesis that the story of Adam and Eve is built upon a common domestic issue.
//

As for the tree of life and its celestial guardian, this appears to be an addition to the story as is the insertion of the description of the four rivers thought to flow from Eden.
How about just the creation of the ego awareness in the Tree of Knowledge made known in the "no shame-shame" complex that only exists in the conscious mind? (cf Gen2:25 and Gen.3:7).

And then Gen.2:10-14 shows the path of salvation already in place before it happened in Gen.3, wherein the first 2 rivers 'wind throughout' as if in search for happiness' while the third river just 'rises' in the East as the place we first left behind to which we return and the there the Eu-prhates shall find?
Note that they covered their genitals, not their egos. I should mention that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, one Enkidu, who lives among animals, becomes alienated from them after having sex with a harlot.
Naked animal man, yes, and naked to wit with no shame possible that way, but if you want to, we can also call it our persona as mask.
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