Apikorus

On Saturday nights, after 11.

Sheshbazzar

Please Naphtali, permit Loomis to provide his own explanations, and allow him to specify which specific verses he believes were altered from their original form.
Your inquiry in opening post in this thread indicates that this is a subject that you are not (as yet) particularly familiar with. I think that all concerned here desire to provide you with the clearest, most accurate, and unbiased information that we are capable of.
But to do this, it is necessary that we keep open minds to thoroughly explore and understand one another's views and positions.
I promise not to go into any of The Bible Code "crap", I was only providing Loomis a forewarning, against providing further flippant, shallow, or hasty replies, As I will be most zealous in defending the text of Genesis right down to the smallest letter, and the position, inflection and interpretation of every single word.
He has debated text with me before, I wish to remind him, and I want him to be prepared.

Although I have mentioned it several times previously in this thread, I want to again make my position on the text of the Torah perfectly clear.

1. I accept that some parts of the Torah were sourced from earlier myths, folktales and documents, and further that these were adapted, edited and rewritten to serve the needs of the Yahwhistic faith (what is believed, "awmein'd" ) and religion (what is "done")

2. I accept the Torah as "inspired", by that I mean, that the Power that causes things to come into being and to exist, is responsible for The Torah's precise readings, and that same Power is responsible for every variation or "version" of the "Bible" now in existence, indeed for every last book, inscription, or writing in the world. including political "cartoons", (old and new)

Naphtali Jones

Slam! Ouch! :crying:

I agree. Sorry for the "Bible Code crap" comment. I should have made the same point more politely since it seems to be something you truly believe in.

This is exactly the conclusion that I have come to as a result of listening to everybody here (except for the "some parts" of the Torah). It seems to be pretty much what Loomis and Pervy have been saying (correct me if I'm wrong).

This is where I will have to disagree, unless by "the Power" you mean "natural causes" such as human intellect. This seems like a pretty extreme view. I suppose that in your theory the contradictions and absurdities contained in the Torah are all deliberately put there as a part of the plan?

I sincerely hope that this great discussion does not degenerate into a rehash of some private debate between the two of you.

~Nap~

Loomis

Give him a glass of wine and he becomes Asherah. But don’t let him drink to much or he becomes Tige Andrews – the actor who used to play Captain Greer on The Mod Squad. :rolling:

Loomis

Who was Shachar?

I asked first.

Psalm 139:8~10

If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there.

If I were to sprawl out in Sheol, there you would be.

If I were to fly away on the wings of Shachar,

and settle down on the other side of the sea,

even there your hand would guide me,

your right hand would grab hold of me.

How would you describe Shachar’s wings?

Did they have feathers?

Did Shachar have webbed toes?

How do you say “I deserve respect because deep in my heart I’m confident Shachar had wings” in Hebrew?

Go ahead Sheshbazzar. I’m bored. Put on a little show for us. The stage is set. The curtain is rising. The lights are on.

Sheshbazzar

Quote; Sheshbazzar

2. I accept the Torah as "inspired", by that I mean, that the Power that causes things to come into being and to exist, is responsible for The Torah's precise readings, and that same Power is responsible for every variation or "version" of the "Bible" now in existence, indeed for every last book, inscription, or writing in the world. including political "cartoons", (old and new)
While we await Loomis's input, I'd like to share the following post from another thread with you as it deals with how I perceive inspiration, reality, and/or "natural causes". My apologies in advance to SoT for any perceived trespass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordOfTruth
I asked the questions because I was having a difficult time understanding why it even mattered. As far as personal beliefs, I would have to believe that a god existed to think it inspired anything, and I don't.

So in light of this, which is my conviction and is fundamental to my faith, your question,

Quote;
I suppose that in your theory the contradictions and absurdities contained in the Torah are all deliberately put there as a part of the plan?

can only be answered in the affirmative.

Loomis

You have it.

Who was Shachar?

I asked first.

Psalm 139:8~10

If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there.

If I were to sprawl out in Sheol, there you would be.

If I were to fly away on the wings of Shachar,

and settle down on the other side of the sea,

even there your hand would guide me,

your right hand would grab hold of me.

How would you describe Shachar’s wings?

Did they have feathers?

Did Shachar have webbed toes?

How do you say “I deserve respect because deep in my heart I’m confident Shachar had wings” in Hebrew?

Go ahead Sheshbazzar. I’m bored. Put on a little show for us. The stage is set. The curtain is rising. The lights are on.

Sheshbazzar

Noting first that this diversion has little to do with providing any answers to the OP in this thread, of how, when, and where the Name YHWH replaced El,
I'll humor you.

I am somewhat curious as to what "version" of the Bible you are employing this time, seems kind of strange to translate all the words into English with the exception of "sha'char" (Bible students are now familiar with the term "sheol'", so it requires no translating)
Lets see now, how many versions of the Bible were you able to locate, that capitalize the word as "Shachar" as though it were a proper personal name?
or that leave this single word "sha'char" untranslated?

Admittedly my first reaction when you first posted that was, You just gotta be kidding!
As in a previous thread where you displayed your utter incompetence in translating or understanding the Hebrew text, I'll leave this potato for your buds to toss around with you. Ask spin if he'll back you up on this reading.

Care to get back to the YHWH/Elohim discussion now?

Naphtali Jones

I agree, enough of this two way pissing match. I feel that my questions have generally been answered and I have been given a lot to think about and study. Is there any more information of I which I need to be aware and are there any good websites or references which I can consult for further study of these issues?

Sheshbazzar, I appreciate your honesty and knowledge on the subject, but I have to say that IMHO your underlying philosophy is irrational. It reminds me of the story of Pangloss (Candide by Voltaire) in which he believes that everything is as it must be, the best of all possible worlds. If everything was put into place by divine order I can't see why contradictions and randomness would exist. And why would you then attach so much importance to YHWH and the Torah. By your theory, these writings would be of no more importance to humankind than the message on last night's fortune cookie.

Loomis

Fyi, Shachar was the proper name of one of El’s sons. The Bible says he was the father of Helel.

Isaiah 14:12

Look how you have fallen from the sky,

Helel, son of Shachar!

You have been cut down to the ground,

to defeat the nations!

You said to yourself,

“I will climb up to the sky.

Above the stars of El

I will set up my throne.

I will rule on the mountain of assembly

on the remote slopes of Zaphon.

I will climb up to the tops of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High!”


Why shouldn’t Shachar’s name be capitalized?

The guys over at Net™ Bible® say I can do it.

Read the footnotes.


I thought you understood this stuff.

I thought you loved Yahweh.

Don’t you think you owe it to Yahweh to get up to speed on this subject?

It seems to me like it is the only honest and intelligent thing to do.

It introduces new possibilities and raises interesting questions.

For example:

If Helel was the son of Shachar, then did Helel have wings too?

When Yahweh flew on the wings of his cherubs, did he ever have any near mid-air mishaps with with Shachar or Helel?


See what I mean?

I think you are missing some of the best parts of the Bible. Spelling ‘name’ with a capital N, or ‘God’ with an underscore pales by comparison.