Naphtali Jones

Is the first reference to Yaweh the story of Moses and the burning bush? I have heard people say that the two creation accounts in Genesis consist of an Elohist and a Yawehist version of the story? I guess what I want to know is if god is consistently refered to as El or Elohim at first and then suddenly changed to YWHW at a specific point in the text or if the two names are interchangable throughout the text.

The point of this is my new strategy for dealing with fundamentalists. I find that using the term "God" is too vague a concept for discussion when I am talking specifically about the god of the bible. By using the correct names I hope to reveal how mythological the whole christian belief system is. For instance I will say, "So you really believe that El and his children, the Elohim, created the world in six days?" or "Do you really think that Yaweh commanded the Israelites to slaughter Canaanite women and children?". I wouldn't use the term "God" when discussing Zeus or Odin so why should I use it when discussing the biblical god? It lends undeserving credence to their pet mythology.

tonan22

I think that's a pretty good idea, but I also think you should be prepared to see blank expressions and puzzled faces when you mention "El" or "Elohim!"

Naphtali Jones

I agree. The confusion is what will open up the opportunity to explain the bible to fundamentalists without all the automatic pat answers that they have been indoctinated to think in. The best part will be explaining how El was the head cannanite god and how his children, the Elohim, made up the remaining pantheon of canaanite dieties such as Baal and Ashtoreth. That will make them think twice.

I need to research this a little more but at least that is my general understanding of the matter. I would appreciate it if someone here can correct me or fill in a few details. I plan to be a little more knowledgeable about the subject before I begin spouting off in public.

John Kesler

You may want to read this thread . In this post I touched on your question. It's not that El was "changed to" Yahweh; El's name and attributes were appropriated for Yahweh.

Naphtali Jones

I have been doing a bit of reading on this subject and have found a few interesting facts.

1. Genesis Chp.1 uses Elohim, but Genesis chp.2 uses the name Yahweh, although this name supposedly isn't revealed until Exodus Chp.3.
   
2. Genesis 6:2 says that it was the Elohim who mated with the daughters of men.
   
3. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 says that El-Elyon put Israel under the control of Yahweh as His inheritance.

I wish I had known all this when I was still a christian. Of course I would never have believed it then.

Thomas II

Naphtali,

Get yourself some cookies and a fresh glass of milk, and read all about it here...:wave:

http://www.homestead.com/bibleorigin...YawUgarit.html

Naphtali Jones

Thanks for the link. It was an interesting discussion. I guess what I don't understand is why Yahweh was used as early as Genesis 2 in some instances but left as El or Elohim at other times, continuing right through the entire Old Testament. I would be interested in reading a modern translation of the bible that left these names intact. It would clear up a lot of the confusion but also demolish a lot of church doctrine. As I said before, I think that using the proper terms and drawing the links to Caananite mythology will accomplish a lot more in our discussions with fundamentalists than conceding use of the generic term "god".

John Kesler

Not to pick nits, but it was the beni ha elohim (sons of God or sons of the gods--angels) who mated with human women.

John Kesler

Exodus 6:2-3 claims El was just another name for Yahweh, and the conflation of Yahweh and El eliminated any need to polemicize against El. Over time, elohim and 'el came to mean "god."


The New Jerusalem Bible is good.

I agree.

Sheshbazzar

One of the realities of the Christian religion is that it has managed to foist off on us some very misleading "Versions" of the Scriptures.
No, Naphtali, the first use of the Name did not occur at the burning bush, but first occurs within that actual text of Scripture at Gen 2:1 and is first spoken in conversation by "Eve" at Gen 4:1 when she said; " I have gotten a man of YHWH"
As far as the actual text there is properly speaking, no "Elohist version", nor "Yahwhist version" or "story", this alleged textual division and its attending terms are only a relatively recent invention, and arose out of a 'theory' that is proving to be increasingly unsupportable by sound scholarship.

The term "elohim" is a generally generic title, meaning "mighty one(s)" similarly applied to men, kings, foreign or false "gods" (ele'leem and when in context, or when prefixed by the H, "ha-Elohim", "THE Elohim" to that One "The Elohim of Abraham".
Thus with reference to the actual text, "Elohim" is not properly a name, but a title of majesty, while the Name YHWH is always a proper personal Name, and is held exclusively by only one elohim. The two are not interchangeable, although "religious" men have at various times substituted one for the other as accommodated or pleased their own ideas.