Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 09-07-2007, 08:00 AM

JW:
The Objective of this Thread will be to Inventory all Negative descriptions of Peter by "Mark". Identification of Negative descriptions will be expanded to consider "Mark's" Literary technique of How these descriptions are presented.

In accordance with Due Diligence standards established by Jeffrey Gibson, I will now reveal my possible Bias. My Framework of the development of Christianity up to "Mark" is as follows:

1) Historical Jesus was Teacher & Faith Healer.

2) Peter was Jesus' disciple and James was Jesus' brother.

3) Peter and James taught 1) and wrote Q.

4) Paul ignored 3) and emphasized Jesus' Death.

5) "Mark" expanded 4) to explain that 3) represented a misunderstanding of Jesus and instead emphasized Jesus' Passion and Death.

This bias though is relatively insignificant compared to the bias of a Christian Bible scholar who assumes that God sacrificed himself to himself, thereby conquering death by dying, souly in order to put an end to his own Eternal Law.

This Thread is inspired by Richard Bauckham and his Jesus and the Eyewitnesses. And now, without further Alphadieu, "Mark", Chapter 1:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1

29 "And straightway, when they were come out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

30 Now Simon`s wife`s mother lay sick of a fever; and straightway they tell him of her:

31 and he came and took her by the hand, and raised her up; and the fever left her, and she ministered unto them."

JW:
Simon's house is shown to have sickness. This is a relatively mild criticism of Peter and even arguable but there is a major Theme in "Mark" that sickness is caused by Demons/Evil Spirits. Also, "Mark's" literary technique is to gradually increase the Stauros of Peter's witness.

Note for future reference that "Mark" is casting Peter as the First and closest witness of Jesus' Mission (JtB was the first Witness).

So our First Inventory item:

1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Huon · 09-08-2007, 05:58 AM

if Jesus is to be compared with Sherlock Holmes, then, Peter is Dr Watson

. But comparison is not reason

.

Stauros : here "cross" (?), could also be "fence, palisade".

JoeWallack · 09-08-2007, 07:16 AM

JW:
Continuing the Inventory:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_2

No criticism of Peter

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_3

16 "and Simon he surnamed Peter;"

JW:
If you go through all of "Mark", in general, named individuals are presented Negatively and unnamed individuals are presented Positively. This appears to be a Literary technique of "Mark". Note that Simon is one of the few characters in "Mark" with more than one name, which is given to him by Jesus. James and John are also given another name by Jesus. Later in the Narrative Jesus makes reference by parable to the special name he gave Peter.

Inventory items:

1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".

Joseph

SATIRE, n.
An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 09-18-2007, 08:02 AM

JW:
Continuing the Inventory:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_4

5 "And other fell on the rocky [ground], where it had not much earth; and straightway it sprang up, because it had no deepness of earth:

6 and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away."

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...pter=4&verse=5

"καὶ ἄλλο ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὸ πετρῶδες ὅπου οὐκ εἶχεν γῆν πολλήν καὶ εὐθὺς ἐξανέτειλεν διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν βάθος γῆς 6 καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη"

JW:
We have the following Textual clues that this example of Disciple Failure is intended to refer to Simon:

1) Jesus' word falls on Peter/Rocky

"And other fell on the rocky". " καὶ ἄλλο ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὸ πετρῶδες"

"πετρῶδες" = rocky

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_3:16

"and Simon he surnamed Peter;" (ASV)

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...ter=3&verse=16

"καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ ἐπέθηκεν ὄνομα τῷ Σίμωνι �*έτρον"

"�*έτρον" = rock

2) Simon immediately responds to Jesus' word

"and straightway it sprang up"

"καὶ εὐθὺς ἐξανέτειλεν"

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1:18

"And straightway they left the nets, and followed him." (ASV)

"καὶ εὐθὺς ἀφέντες τὰ δίκτυα �*κολούθησαν αὐτῷ"

3) Simon refuses to believe that the Son will rise

"and when the sun was risen"

"καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος"

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_8

31 "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him."

"καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἀναστῆναι" (and after three days rise again)

4) After the Son rises Peter will fall away

"and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away"

"καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη"

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14:27

"And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad." (ASV)

5) Jesus explains that Satan takes away the word

4:14 "The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they have heard, straightway cometh Satan, and taketh away the word which hath been sown in them."

Verses:

8:31 "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men."

6) Jesus explains that the Rocky stumble as soon as persecution comes

4:16 "And these in like manner are they that are sown upon the rocky [places], who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy;

17 and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble."

Verses:

14:29 "But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice.

31 But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee."

JW:
Thus we have it on good authority that in addition to The Parable of the Sower giving a General description of Disciple Reactions to Jesus it was also intended to Specifically refer to Peter's reaction.

And so our Inventory is now:

1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".

3) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Simon as in the category of Disciple Failure.

Joseph

SATIRE, n.
An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Diogenes the Cynic · 09-18-2007, 09:45 AM

Sometimes what the text doesn't say can be as revealing as what it does say. Don't forget to include Mark's lack of a Petrine witness to the resurrection in your inventory.

JoeWallack · 09-18-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Sometimes what the text doesn't say can be as revealing as what it does say. Don't forget to include Mark's lack of a Petrine witness to the resurrection in your inventory.

JW:
As James Woods' Hades said in Hercules, "Love to..but can't. Love to..but can't:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_16

7 "But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid."

Per "Mark", no one witnessed the resurrection and only an anonymous character (understand Dear Reader?) even knew that Jesus was resurrected. Therefore, I think it would be unfair here for me to Inventory this Failure of Peter because it is not specific to Peter.

I think the Messenger at the end that no one listens to is just the final Ironic contrast to the Messenger at the beginning that everyone listened to. And just as Jesus came from Nozewhere Galilee at the start the Literary structure is Balanced with Jesus going to Nozewhere Galilee at the end.

Whether "Mark" intended a Story where Jesus was a complete Failure is a serious question that has not been dealt with seriously by Christian Bible scholarship. At first appearance all the tribulation effort put into "Mark" makes one think that the author is being serious. However, this also heightens the Irony/Comedy that Jesus goes on and on and on (so to speak) about post resurrection instruction and then there is no one authorized at the designated time coordinate to receive instructions on how to proceed. "Mark's" Jesus is King of the Promuisa but he doesn't have a Date (pun intended).

I suspect that for the Roman citizen that "Mark" was written for (above all else, in order for The Reader to understand one must first be a Reader) with no Christian religious beliefs, "Mark" would have been quite entertaining. The Ironic structure of "Mark" is complete and is the Gjue that holds the story together.

On the other hand, for the Roman citizen with existing Christian beliefs, Paul provides a framework of basic beliefs, without Narrative that are also very Ironic. The Jews don't know what their own writings mean, don't recognize their own Messiah and follow a Law that God ended. Instead, non-Jews know what the Jewish writings mean, recognize the Jewish Messiah and complete a Law they never knew, etc. etc. etc. So "Mark" may have seriously believed that basic Ironic outline of Paul and created a Narrative from it.

Joseph

SATIRE, n.
An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 09-23-2007, 01:27 PM

JW:
Continuing the Inventory:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_8

29 "And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

34 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel`s shall save it.

36 For what doth it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?

37 For what should a man give in exchange for his life?"

38 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

JW:
For those who accept that "Mark" has a Contrived literary structure (another argument for Markan priority) some think that the Transfiguration is the crux (so to speak). I think the center of the Structure is right here. The Narrative accepts that Peter thought of Jesus as the Messiah:

"And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ."

To this point in the Narrative Jesus has met Peter's Expectations of what a Messiah should do, a Teaching and Healing Ministry. Jesus however, has not enjoyed it:

"And he charged them that they should tell no man of him."

In the Center of the Narrative Jesus' makes the Transition from the Expected to the Unexpected:

"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."

The author supplements the change in Action with a change in communication:

"And he spake the saying openly"

Jesus explained his Ministry with Parables because it was Unimportant. Jesus explained his Passion with Direct language because it was Important. The most important point of the entire Gospel is next:

"And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him."

Peter did understand Jesus' Passion prediction. Peter however, Opposed it. "Rebuke" is a command/order just as Jesus ordered the Demons. "Mark" than Explicitly casts Peter as the Opposition to the Passion:

"But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men."

Note that "Mark" gives no reason whatsoever to think that after Jesus' response Peter in any way changed his opposition to the Passion.

In addition to Peter being shown as Opposed to the Passion "Mark" presents Peter as not only an Example of opposition but the example of Opposition with the following Literary touches:

1) Up to the Transition, Peter as lead Disciple presumably has been the primary Disciple beneficiary of Jesus' success.

2) Peter is the one who IDs Jesus as Messiah.

3) Jesus clearly explains his Passion to Peter making Peter guiltier.

4) Peter commands Jesus not to Passion.

5) Jesus commands Peter not to oppose the Passion in front of the Disciples.

6) Jesus calls Peter "Satan".

7) Jesus continues to make a point to the larger audience (understand Dear Reader?) that his followers should likewise Passion (In perhaps the largest Irony of all, if Jesus' instructions here had actually been followed there would be no Christians today).

8) Jesus goes beyond showing Peter here as the Example of Negative Failure, not embracing the Passion, to setting Peter up as the Example of Positive Failure, Denying Jesus to save your life.

Thus we have it on good authority that in addition to Peter being specifically portrayed here as a Specific example of Negative Follower Failure and future Positive Follower Failure the author also intended Peter to Serve as the General example of Failure for all Followers.

And so our Inventory is now:

1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".

3) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure.

4) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion.

Note that once "Mark" has introduced the idea of the Passion to the Narrative the Negative Casting of Peter increases exponentially.

Joseph

SATIRE, n.
An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 09-25-2007, 08:32 AM

JW:
Continuing the Inventory:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14

27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad.

28 Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee.

29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice.

31 But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner also said they all."

JW:
Jesus predicts that all the Disciples will desert him:

"And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad"

Peter sets himself apart from the others and predicts that he will not desert Jesus:

"But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I."

Jesus responds (with authority) that Peter will Deny Jesus Three, count em, Three, count em, Three times:

"And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice."

Peter responds (with authority) that he is willing to die rather than Deny Jesus:

"But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner also said they all"

In addition to Peter being shown Specifically here as one who will Deny Jesus "Mark" also presents Peter as the General example of Jesus Denial with the following Literary touches:

1) "Mark's" Jesus claims prophecy fulfillment here.

2) Peter singles himself out as the most loyal.

3) Jesus puts his Peter in place with the Authority phrase "Verily I say unto thee".

4) Jesus predicts Peter's Denial will have the magic number Five, uh, Three sir.

5) Peter gives an Oath that he will not Deny Jesus.

6) "smite the shepherd" refers to Persecution which Jesus previously said would be when Rocky failed.

And so our Inventory is now:

1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".

3) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure.

4) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion.

5) 14:30 Jesus predicts that Peter will Deny him Three times.

Joseph

SATIRE, n.
An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

squiz · 09-26-2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

4) After the Son rises Peter will fall away

"and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away"

"καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη"

Is the original Greek here "Sun" or "Son"? Why confuse the two?

JoeWallack · 09-26-2007, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

4) After the Son rises Peter will fall away

"and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away"

"καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη"

Is the original Greek here "Sun" or "Son"? Why confuse the two?

JW:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_4:6

"and when the sun was risen"

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...pter=4&verse=6

"καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος"

"ἥλιος" = sun

http://www.zhubert.com/word?word=%E1...&number=608531

The Greek words are different:

"ἥλιος" = sun = helios

"υἱὸς" = son = huios"

but close enough in pronunciation that I think a Greek speaker would have made the connection and combined with "risen":

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...pter=4&verse=6

"ἀνέτειλεν" = risen

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...ter=16&verse=2

"ἀνατείλαντος" = risen

makes it clear that 4:6 was intended to refer to 16:2. Ask Ben Smith to confirm.

Joseph

SATIRE, n.
An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

09-07-2007, 08:00 AM	#1
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	"The Simontic Problem" - An Inventory Of "Mark's" Negative Casting Of Peter JW: The Objective of this Thread will be to Inventory all Negative descriptions of Peter by "Mark". Identification of Negative descriptions will be expanded to consider "Mark's" Literary technique of How these descriptions are presented. In accordance with Due Diligence standards established by Jeffrey Gibson, I will now reveal my possible Bias. My Framework of the development of Christianity up to "Mark" is as follows: 1) Historical Jesus was Teacher & Faith Healer. 2) Peter was Jesus' disciple and James was Jesus' brother. 3) Peter and James taught 1) and wrote Q. 4) Paul ignored 3) and emphasized Jesus' Death. 5) "Mark" expanded 4) to explain that 3) represented a misunderstanding of Jesus and instead emphasized Jesus' Passion and Death. This bias though is relatively insignificant compared to the bias of a Christian Bible scholar who assumes that God sacrificed himself to himself, thereby conquering death by dying, souly in order to put an end to his own Eternal Law. This Thread is inspired by Richard Bauckham and his Jesus and the Eyewitnesses. And now, without further Alphadieu, "Mark", Chapter 1: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1 29 "And straightway, when they were come out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon`s wife`s mother lay sick of a fever; and straightway they tell him of her: 31 and he came and took her by the hand, and raised her up; and the fever left her, and she ministered unto them." JW: Simon's house is shown to have sickness. This is a relatively mild criticism of Peter and even arguable but there is a major Theme in "Mark" that sickness is caused by Demons/Evil Spirits. Also, "Mark's" literary technique is to gradually increase the Stauros of Peter's witness. Note for future reference that "Mark" is casting Peter as the First and closest witness of Jesus' Mission (JtB was the first Witness). So our First Inventory item: 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house. Joseph STORY, n. A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

09-08-2007, 07:16 AM	#3
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	Simon Didn't Saay JW: Continuing the Inventory: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_2 No criticism of Peter http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_3 16 "and Simon he surnamed Peter;" JW: If you go through all of "Mark", in general, named individuals are presented Negatively and unnamed individuals are presented Positively. This appears to be a Literary technique of "Mark". Note that Simon is one of the few characters in "Mark" with more than one name, which is given to him by Jesus. James and John are also given another name by Jesus. Later in the Narrative Jesus makes reference by parable to the special name he gave Peter. Inventory items: 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house. 2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter". Joseph SATIRE, n. An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

09-18-2007, 08:02 AM	#4
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	The Peter Principle JW: Continuing the Inventory: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_4 5 "And other fell on the rocky [ground], where it had not much earth; and straightway it sprang up, because it had no deepness of earth: 6 and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away." http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...pter=4&verse=5 "καὶ ἄλλο ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὸ πετρῶδες ὅπου οὐκ εἶχεν γῆν πολλήν καὶ εὐθὺς ἐξανέτειλεν διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν βάθος γῆς 6 καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη" JW: We have the following Textual clues that this example of Disciple Failure is intended to refer to Simon: 1) Jesus' word falls on Peter/Rocky "And other fell on the rocky". " καὶ ἄλλο ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὸ πετρῶδες" "πετρῶδες" = rocky http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_3:16 "and Simon he surnamed Peter;" (ASV) http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...ter=3&verse=16 "καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς δώδεκα καὶ ἐπέθηκεν ὄνομα τῷ Σίμωνι �έτρον" "�έτρον" = rock 2) Simon immediately responds to Jesus' word "and straightway it sprang up" "καὶ εὐθὺς ἐξανέτειλεν" http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_1:18 "And straightway they left the nets, and followed him." (ASV) "καὶ εὐθὺς ἀφέντες τὰ δίκτυα �κολούθησαν αὐτῷ" 3) Simon refuses to believe that the Son will rise* "and when the sun was risen" "καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος" http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_8 31 "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." "καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἀναστῆναι" (and after three days rise again) 4) After the Son rises Peter will fall away "and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away" "καὶ ὅτε ἀνέτειλεν ὁ ἥλιος ἐκαυματίσθη καὶ διὰ τὸ μὴ ἔχειν ῥίζαν ἐξηράνθη" http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14:27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad." (ASV) 5) Jesus explains that Satan takes away the word 4:14 "The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they have heard, straightway cometh Satan, and taketh away the word which hath been sown in them." Verses: 8:31 "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men." 6) Jesus explains that the Rocky stumble as soon as persecution comes 4:16 "And these in like manner are they that are sown upon the rocky [places], who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy; 17 and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble." Verses: 14:29 "But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I. 30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice. 31 But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee." JW: Thus we have it on good authority that in addition to The Parable of the Sower giving a General description of Disciple Reactions to Jesus it was also intended to Specifically refer to Peter's reaction. And so our Inventory is now: 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house. 2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter". 3) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Simon as in the category of Disciple Failure. Joseph SATIRE, n. An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

09-23-2007, 01:27 PM	#7
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	All Petered Out JW: Continuing the Inventory: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_8 29 "And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. 30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men. 34 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel`s shall save it. 36 For what doth it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? 37 For what should a man give in exchange for his life?" 38 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." JW: For those who accept that "Mark" has a Contrived literary structure (another argument for Markan priority) some think that the Transfiguration is the crux (so to speak). I think the center of the Structure is right here. The Narrative accepts that Peter thought of Jesus as the Messiah: "And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ." To this point in the Narrative Jesus has met Peter's Expectations of what a Messiah should do, a Teaching and Healing Ministry. Jesus however, has not enjoyed it: "And he charged them that they should tell no man of him." In the Center of the Narrative Jesus' makes the Transition from the Expected to the Unexpected: "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." The author supplements the change in Action with a change in communication: "And he spake the saying openly" Jesus explained his Ministry with Parables because it was Unimportant. Jesus explained his Passion with Direct language because it was Important. The most important point of the entire Gospel is next: "And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Peter did understand Jesus' Passion prediction. Peter however, Opposed it. "Rebuke" is a command/order just as Jesus ordered the Demons. "Mark" than Explicitly casts Peter as the Opposition to the Passion: "But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men." Note that "Mark" gives no reason whatsoever to think that after Jesus' response Peter in any way changed his opposition to the Passion. In addition to Peter being shown as Opposed to the Passion "Mark" presents Peter as not only an Example of opposition but the example of Opposition with the following Literary touches: 1) Up to the Transition, Peter as lead Disciple presumably has been the primary Disciple beneficiary of Jesus' success. 2) Peter is the one who IDs Jesus as Messiah. 3) Jesus clearly explains his Passion to Peter making Peter guiltier. 4) Peter commands Jesus not to Passion. 5) Jesus commands Peter not to oppose the Passion in front of the Disciples. 6) Jesus calls Peter "Satan". 7) Jesus continues to make a point to the larger audience (understand Dear Reader?) that his followers should likewise Passion (In perhaps the largest Irony of all, if Jesus' instructions here had actually been followed there would be no Christians today). 8) Jesus goes beyond showing Peter here as the Example of Negative Failure, not embracing the Passion, to setting Peter up as the Example of Positive Failure, Denying Jesus to save your life. Thus we have it on good authority that in addition to Peter being specifically portrayed here as a Specific example of Negative Follower Failure and future Positive Follower Failure the author also intended Peter to Serve as the General example of Failure for all Followers. And so our Inventory is now: 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house. 2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter". 3) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure. 4) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion. Note that once "Mark" has introduced the idea of the Passion to the Narrative the Negative Casting of Peter increases exponentially. Joseph SATIRE, n. An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

09-25-2007, 08:32 AM	#8
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	Simon Didn't Saay JW: Continuing the Inventory: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14 27 "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad. 28 Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee. 29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I. 30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice. 31 But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner also said they all." JW: Jesus predicts that all the Disciples will desert him: "And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad" Peter sets himself apart from the others and predicts that he will not desert Jesus: "But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Jesus responds (with authority) that Peter will Deny Jesus Three, count em, Three, count em, Three times: "And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, [even] this night, before the cock crow twice, shalt deny me thrice." Peter responds (with authority) that he is willing to die rather than Deny Jesus: "But he spake exceedingly vehemently, If I must die with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner also said they all" In addition to Peter being shown Specifically here as one who will Deny Jesus "Mark" also presents Peter as the General example of Jesus Denial with the following Literary touches: 1) "Mark's" Jesus claims prophecy fulfillment here. 2) Peter singles himself out as the most loyal. 3) Jesus puts his Peter in place with the Authority phrase "Verily I say unto thee". 4) Jesus predicts Peter's Denial will have the magic number Five, uh, Three sir. 5) Peter gives an Oath that he will not Deny Jesus. 6) "smite the shepherd" refers to Persecution which Jesus previously said would be when Rocky failed. And so our Inventory is now: 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house. 2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter". 3) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure. 4) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion. 5) 14:30 Jesus predicts that Peter will Deny him Three times. Joseph SATIRE, n. An obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness. In this country satire never had more than a sickly and uncertain existence, for the soul of it is wit, wherein we are dolefully deficient, the humor that we mistake for it, like all humor, being tolerant and sympathetic. Moreover, although Americans are "endowed by their Creator" with abundant vice and folly, it is not generally known that these are reprehensible qualities, wherefore the satirist is popularly regarded as a soul-spirited knave, and his ever victim's outcry for codefendants evokes a national assent. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

09-08-2007, 05:58 AM	#2
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	if Jesus is to be compared with Sherlock Holmes, then, Peter is Dr Watson . But comparison is not reason . Stauros : here "cross" (?), could also be "fence, palisade".

09-18-2007, 09:45 AM	#5
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Sometimes what the text doesn't say can be as revealing as what it does say. Don't forget to include Mark's lack of a Petrine witness to the resurrection in your inventory.

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