hjalti

El is two letters, aleph and lamed: אל

But IIRC the DSS have "elohim" (which means god).

And I have just seen various scholars point this fact out, e.g. Michael Heiser in footnote 5 p. 2 here.

Like judge points out, talking about the sons of El is polytheistic (Yahweh is one of those sons), talking about the (human) sons of Israel (the individual a.k.a. Jacob) is not.

avi

Looks to me as though the Masoretic text agrees with DSS:

בראשית ברא אלהים
את השמים ואת
הארץ

If El is the highest god, with 70 omnipotent, divine, children, yahweh among them, then, is Judaism not, by definition, a polytheistic religion, long before the Christians came up with JC? If one still, today, believes that yahweh was merely one of 70 siblings, then, is it not a religion practicing polytheism?

Was JC then another of El's children, or was he yahweh's child?

avi

hjalti

You are quoting Gen 1.1

I don't have a clue about how the DSS compare to the MT in Gen 1.1.


They weren't omnipotent. And sure, the people back then (I don't think that "Judaism" is the correct term) sure were polytheists.

According to the omniscient and infallible Margaret Barker (or via: amazon.co.uk), the early Christians seem to have thought of Jesus as Yahweh, and thus the son of El Elyon (god most high). Notice that Jesus is never called "the son of the lord" in the New testament, but he is often called, "son of the most high".

avi

Thank you for this, most informative comment. Much appreciated....I had no idea.... So, I guess that settles the question of JC's siblings....

:notworthy:

avi

hjalti

I warn you, I think that the man known as 'spin', doesn't agree with Barker. What a heretic! :Cheeky:

And if you have this DSS CD, you could try to find this fragment:

4QDt(j)

It should have the relevant passage (deu 32.8),

John Kesler

The DSS of Deuteronomy 32:8 says sons of God (bny 'lhym). (See page 32 of Mark S. Smith's The Early History of God, for example.) The rendering "sons of El" is based on the reference to Elyon--a title of El-- earlier in the verse. Also, the Ugaritic/Ras Shamra tablets mention El's fathering of 70 sons. See this post for more information.

judge

I was just having a look at the article hjalti linked to in post 81.
It discusses how in Ugaritic texts there seems to be a hierarchy of divine beings. For example the author writes on page 16, 'Both Ugaritic and Biblical Hebrew use ml)k (“messenger,” typically translated "angel") to denote heavenly beings of a lower order than the “sons of god” or “divine ones.Just as at Ugarit and elsewhere, in the Hebrew Bible, the terms above (Myhi$l)v , MylI)" , or the Myhi$l)v yn"b2; ) and the Myki)Fl;mA are not to be equated. All these divine beings are members of Yahweh's council, but within that council a hierarchy exists. .”'

He then goes on to write...."The practice of some English Bible translations to render all these terms alike as “angels” blurs the distinctions and obscures the textual testimony to the divine council. The lack of specificity inherent in the Greek New Testament vocabulary is also a problem with respect to discerning not only the levels of the divine council, but the council's presence itself."

(emboldening mine)

Im not sure which versions do this and in what verses though, but maybe someone more familar does know?

(added in edit)
I'm not too sure why in the NT , though, the author would expect there to be a delineation between various heavenly beings which would give any indication of levels within a divine council.