steamer

I ran across this reference while surfing. Does anyone know the book from which this quote might have been taken?

"According to the historian Toynbee, there were 87 gods born of a woman, killed, and then resurrected."

froggy

I never heard that one. In 1997 I came accross this book called "The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors", maybe you can start from there, but becareful before making any conclusion as it may hurt the feeling of many people unnecessarily.

ex-xian

I think you may be more likely to get a good answer in the Biblical Criticism and History section.

Toto

You found that here where it sounds like a humorous exaggeration. (He might as well have said 6 gazillion gods.

or

here.

I suspect that Toynbee took what he knew from Joseph Cambell. The closest I can find to that statement is from here

Steven Avery

Or you may find out that the scholarship is rather flakey....

Notice that even the internet infidels include the prominent disclaimer...

"Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous theists and nontheists alike; the inclusion of his The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book."

"extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book" !

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

John A. Broussard

He sure is.

He missed this one:

Ishtar was a Sumerian goddes who was crucified, resurrected and returned from the underworld a millenium and a half before Christ.

The similarity with the Christian story is, of course, sheer coincidence.

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

"the inclusion of his The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book."

Rchard Carrier ...
"The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors: Or Christianity Before Christ is unreliable, but no comprehensive critique exists. Most scholars immediately recognize many of his findings as unsupported and dismiss Graves as useless."

First, Graves included Ishtar as Tammuz, as the understanding at the time was incomplete, as Carrier points out.

In general Carrier goes back and forth with Holding, as at..
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nwjcarr1.htm
Holding disassembles Carrier's usage of Inanna, but Holding does say

"The only parallel I have ever seen come close is the ancient Sumerian goddess Inanna (see here) whose case is far removed, and who is also depicted as vindicated -- which doesn't give much analogical help to our critic."

Actually I think that is far to kind to the Inanna comparison, when you simply read the story, which helps highlight the absurdity of the comparison claims.

Interestingly, Carrier never gives us the Ishtar story, afaik (apparently one of many myths in this regard) other than a muti-page reference in a book few will ever see. An interesting omission. Yet, when one reads the stories, one sees why.

However first keep in mind that most of this is from
"fragmented tales"
http://www.pibburns.com/catasbib/mytholog.htm

And that the scholarship changes .. here is an Inanna related example..
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/...cles/yama.html
Easter: Myth, Hallucination or History by Edwin M. Yamauchi
"In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), his alleged resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of "The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar)" had not been preserved. Professor S. N. Kramer in 1960 published a new poem, "The Death of Dumuzi," that proves conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld, Inanna sent him there as her substitute (cf. my article, "Tammuz and the Bible," Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXXIV [1965], 283-90). A line in a fragmentary and obscure text is the only positive evidence that after being sent to the Underworld Dumuzi may have had his sister take his place for half the year "(cf. S. N. Kramer, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 183 [1966], 31).

The best I could find in a short look on the web about the supposed "uncanny resemblance" :-)

http://www.jelder.com/mythology/inanna.html
The Descent of Inanna

http://www.linsdomain.com/gods&goddesses/inanna.htm
Inanna - The Triple Goddess

http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/raqs/inanna'sdescent.htm
Inanna's Descent: An Archetype of Feminine Self-Discovery and Transformation by Andrea Deagon

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/...st/mi-elo2.htm
Inanna, Queen of Heaven and Earth By Eloise Hart

http://www.konformist.com/blasphemy/easter.htm
Inanna and Dumuzi have a passionate love affair and marriage. Subsequently the goddess wants to visit the underworld ruled by her enemy and sister Ereshkigal, probably to rule there as well as in heaven.... They bring her back to life and she reascends to earth, accompanied by frightened demons who wander with her from city to city in Summer. When she returns to Uruk she finds her lover Dumuzi not bewailing her plight in the underworld, but actually celebrating it. She sets after him the demons, who after a long chase overtake and torture him and drag him down to the underworld.

Inanna
http://www.womanspiritrising.nu/Resources/goddesses.htm
In the third millenium B.C., in Sumer, Inanna was the Goddess of life, love and death. She is known as the Queen of Heaven who made every king her bridegroom. She filled the wells, rivers and springs . Inanna is the Goddess of sexual love, a healer, lifegiver, composer of songs and creativity. To be truly transformed, Inanna descended into the Underworld, where her sister Erishkigal ruled. In the Underworld, Inanna goes through seven gates and is stripped of all she owns. She is hung on a peg by her sister to die. Her servant Ninshubar intercedes for her with the God of Wisdom who sends spirits to Erishkigal to mirror her laments. The spirits relieve Erishkigal of her grief and she offers them a gift. They refuse the gift and ask instead for Inanna's body. Erishkigal allows this and Inanna is reborn and returns to her country. Since Inanna must replace herself in the Underworld, she chooses her husband Dumuzi who has usurped her privileges. Dumuzi now spends half the year in the Underworld.

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/