Jon Barleycorn

Well, assuming that you presume yourself to be "a righteous person-(one who serves god)" why don't you pray for your god to open all the IIDB'ers eyes & convert them to Calvinism over the course of tonight & we'll see how it goes?

rhutchin

Not sure that there is any value in doing that, but I will ask God for something else appropriate.

rhutchin

OK. You don't have to. You still get to die one day just like everyone else. Death should be an adventure. I think it will be.

rhutchin

I am not asking you to submit to God. It would be the logical thing to do. Regardless of a person's reason for choosing not to submit to God (with that reason being nothing more than hope that God does not exist), the risk of making a wrong decision still exists. If decent people are not able to love the God of the Bible, then they assume the risk of having misinterpreted Him and His actions and thereby fail to escape punishment for their sins (which they presumably would want to do).

I am not sure that is true. Here is how Paul argued the point in Romans 1.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,...

God will treat each person fairly. Those who have sinned, regardless who they are, will be denied entry into heaven.

That would seem to suggest that people, even you, will not change no matter how much God reveals Himself. People are in bad shape.

OK. How about if God holds people accountable for doing to others those things that they do not want done to them?

Think you could weasel out of that?

Johnny Skeptic

Ok, you find a righteous amputee and ask him to ask God for a new limb. You can bet that God will never in this life instantly create a new limb for an amputee. God obviously discriminates againsts amputees because he never gives them new limbs, at least as far as we know. If you are not able to determine which Christians are righteous, then reliable tests are not possible. Are you a rightous man?

One million people died in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians. I suppose that you believe that not one of those Christians who died of starvation who asked God to provide them with food was a righteous person, and that not one of the Christians who died in the Bubonic Plague who asked God for help was a righteous person. The Bubonic Plague, which was caused by a bacteria that God created, killed one fourth of the people in Europe.

Is it your position that God's plagues and hurricanes single out non-righteous people to attack? If the God of the Bible exists, it seems to me that he rewards and attacks people indiscriminately with no proven regard for their needs or worldviews. While tangible benefits are frequently distributed to those who are not in greatest need, including to some very evil people who never pray for anything, and who never become Christians, they are frequently withheld from those who are in greatest need. This gives millions of people the impression that God does not exist, or that is he does exist, he is mentally incompetent. No loving, rational being helps people AND kills people, especially not indiscriminately.

rhutchin

OK. Nonetheless, you will still die one day. Are you going to leave your destiny to the toss of a coin or are you going to look at the evidence?:huh:

Johnny Skeptic

But decent people do not have a choice whether or not to love a God who has committed the numerous atrocities that God has committed against mankind. Your definition of the word "atrocity" is much different that decent peoples' definition. If God told lies, you would consider that to be an atrocity, but when it comes to God’s atrocities, many of which are much worse than lying is, you have somehow been able to abandon your principles and morals. A web definition for the word "atrocity" is "the quality of being shockingly cruel and inhumane". God is definitely shockingly cruel and inhumane. Consider the following:

1 - God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11.

2 - God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5.

3 - God killed babies at Sodom and Gomorrah

4 - God kills people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout followers. Even Attila the Hun did not kill his own followers.

5 - God empowered a savage Devil to help him attack mankind.

6 - God is willing that some people starve to death even though he has food in abundance. In the Irish Potato Famine alone, one million people died of starvation, most of whom were Christians. It is probable that many if not most of the Christians desperately asked God to provide them with food, but to no avail. James says that if a man refuses give food to a hungry person, he is vain, and his faith is dead. This makes God a hypocrite. Human effort alone could never feed all of the hungry people in the world, and human technology at this time is not able to prevent God’s killer hurricanes from seriously injuring and killing people, and destroying their property.

7 - Today, it appears that all tangible benefits are distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics. This is to be expected if God does not exist. If he does exist, then he frequently distributes tangible benefits to those who are not in greatest need, but frequently withholds tangible benefits from those who are in greatest need, and with no provable regard for a person’s worldview.

Do you believe that hurricanes do or do not operate in a random manner?

8 - God deliberately withholds information from some people who would accept it if they were aware of it. If God clearly revealed himself to everyone, no man could complain that he did not have adequate information, in which case no man would have any excuses. As it is, on judgment day, any man who has never heard the Gospel message who Jesus chooses to send to hell can rightly say that the rules were not clearly disclosed. In addition, on judgment day, any man who has heard the Gospel message and rejected it, and would have accepted it if he had had more information, can rightly say that he was treated unfairly.

In the thread on 2 Peter 3:9, you said “If God revealed Himself in the manner you are describing, then everyone would obviously become a Christian.” I replied “But you have said that the Devil knows that God exists, but has rejected God, so you have refuted your own argument. In addition, millions of decent people would not be able to accept God even if they believed that he exists.”

God is able to provide additional information that would convince some people to become Christians who were not previously convinced, which means that he is not nearly as loving and merciful as you claim he is. If a man tells his son on numerous occasions not to drive when intoxicated, you would probably claim that the son had been provided with sufficient information, but you most certainly would not claim that if the father saw his son try to drive when intoxicated that the father would not still tell his son not to drive when intoxicated. It is called love and compassion.

Human effort alone could never let everyone know about the Gospel message. In the first century, it is not likely that anyone who lived in China could have known about the Gospel message unless God told them about it, and history has shown that God has little or no interest in telling people about the Gospel message himself. If God provided me with additional evidence, I might become a Christian.

If the Bible is true, then I am refusing to tell people about the Gospel message out of ignorance, not out of intent. On the other hand, God refuses to tell some people about the Gospel message out of intent. This makes God much more culpable than I am.

9 - God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God’s justice, requires it. Otherwise, mercy is meaningless.

10 - No loving, rational being, whether a human or a God, ever intentionally does anything without the hope of benefiting himself and/or someone else at present, or in the future. It has not been reasonably established that God derives any benefits whatsoever from making people blind, deaf, and dumb. It is most certainly not necessary to make a man blind, deaf, and dumb in order to convince him to become a Christian. In fact, one of the best ways to convince a man not to become a Christian would be to make him blind, deaf, and dumb. It most certainly is not necessary to allow a man to starve to death in order to convince him to become a Christian. If God had always provided all of the hungry people in the world with food, and had always told everyone, tangibly, in person, that he was the source of the food, the Christian church would surely be a lot larger than it is today.

11 - In the Old Testament, God ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave. In addition, the New Testament does not clearly oppose slavery, even though it easily could have if God exists. If it did, the world would be a much better place in which to live in.

Now you can claim that I have not provided sufficient evidence of atrocities that God has committed against mankind if you wish, but rational minded and fair minded people know that if the God of the Bible exists, he is either evil or mentally incompetent. Under our legal system, many of God’s actions and allowances are punishable by life imprisonment or death. If telling lies is wrong, it is wrong no matter who tells lies, including God. If refusing to feed hungry people is wrong, it is wrong no matter who refuses to feed hungry people, including God. If killing people is wrong, it is wrong matter who kills people, including God. Hypocrisy is wrong no matter who is a hypocrite, including God. Are you actually going to tell us that telling lies is worse than killing people and allowing people to starve to death when you have plenty of food?

Johnny Skeptic

What evidence? If a God exists, he might be good, evil, or amoral. By definition, a God can accomplish whatever he wants to accomplish. If he wishes to reveal his true nature to people, he is easily able to do so. If he wishes to conceal true nature from people, he is easily able to do so. This means that at best, the odds are no better than even that God is who the Bible says he is. Your problem is that Jesus said that in order for man to become a Christian, he must love God with ALL of his heart, soul, and mind. Such a commitment most assuredly implies PROBABLITY, not POSSIBILITY. However, all that you have is speculation and guesswork, most certianly not probability.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes I can, and quite easily. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That is the rules, but God deliberately withholds knowledge of the rules from some people who would accept him if they knew what the rules are. Regarding people who know the rules, if they are decent, they are not able to accept the rules because of God's detestable character. If God provided me with more information, I might accept the rules.

Your typical approach is what more skeptics can do, but my typical approach is what more God can do. If God exists, he is much more able to help people than anyone else is, which makes him much more culpable than anyone else for refusing to help more people to accept Christianity. Human effort alone could never even come close to letting everyone know about the Gospel message.

Jon Barleycorn

May I respectfully suggest that the real reason that you are "Not sure that there is any value in doing that" ....... is because you know full well that there's not a hope in hell (or in heaven) of it coming to pass however fervently you might pray for it?