Peter Kirby

Toto asked the question. If it's a given that a supernatural anything did not exist, who cares whether a non-supernatural Jesus existed? Do you?

If not, what questions about the pre-contemporary past do you care about, if any?

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

krosero

The words sound corny, but yes, I do care. Why should my interest, either mental emotional or spiritual, be confined to the supernatural? I take interest in things on earth, as IMHO any Christian should. But perhaps you want an answer more specific to Jesus. Well, there are the teachings -- I'd like to know if one man delivered them, and in what spirit or intention he did so, or if they came about through a collective, and in what spirit or intention that happened.

It is also a compelling story no matter how naturalistic you make it. Here's an individual executed unjustly by the state. Not interesting? How about a man who has a mission that sees some success but ends in bitter failure, but still some kind of lasting honor? How about the passage of one man through a collective that finds him uninteresting (perhaps "a wimpy Jesus") or threatening?

And then there's always that real juicy stuff about Mary Magdalene and the Holy Grail.

Toto

That's not quite what I asked. From memory, I said that if Jesus had been anything like the gospels' depiction, he would probably have been mentioned by Josephus, but if he was just an insignificant backwater preacher, who cares if he existed?

I did not mean to say anything about the supernatural. A Jesus who led a movement and said wise things and did psychosomatic healings and was crucified would qualify here.

My point was that you might be able to find some guy named Jesus who wandered around Palestine and got run over by a Roman chariot, and claim that this Jesus was the inspiration for Christianity. But if he was that insignficant, what difference would it make if he existed or if someone invented the gospel Jesus out of whole cloth?

Peter Kirby

Hmmm. So, do you care whether a man who led a movement and said wise things and did psychosomatic healings and was crucified by Pilate in the first century existed?

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

Toto

If there was such a great man, and understanding him explained world history after that, of course I would care.

But suppose the real Jesus behind the gospel Jesus was crazy Jesus son of Ananais (if I got that right) - the loony who wailed about the destruction of the Temple.

Would you rather not know that he was the inspiration for the gospel Jesus?

Vinnie

Jesus is so important today that we can't help nbut care and discuss him. You won't see people here defending the historicity, tooth and nail, of some obscure figure in history. The reward is not there. Jesus is popular today but from a historical standpoint just another Jew. Maybe more active and charismatic one or maybe one with a different vocation or whatever....but realy nothing special.

Thats largely why I have been away. I don't think the discussion has merit. Okay, you convinced me some rabble rousing Jew who allegedy started a cult 2,000 years ago didn't exist. So what? Now if I were a Christian that would be a different story.

Though we tend to like biographies of famous individuals. And given Jesus' importance a ton of people are interested in the Jesus questions so its worth pursuing sometimes.

Vinnie

Peter Kirby

What I find fascinating is the controversy. Of course I want to know.

What would make "a man who led a movement and said wise things and did psychosomatic healings and was crucified by Pilate in the first century" a great man?

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

krosero

And the debate itself is a fascinating crucible for certain questions: how we know that anything happened in the past; how we come to general knowledge, and come to defend, revise and overthrow it; why people disagree, and the various ways in which they do.

Amaleq13

I would love to know as much as possible about the guy who was the inspiration for all the myths of Christianity. I would also love to know as much as possible about the guy who inspired the King Arthur myths.

Vinnie

i'd like to know about king tut!

i like reading about the real christopher columbus (scum bag, slave trader and so on), the real pocahontas (lady rebecca), george washington and so on. For some reason learning truths and sispelling myths about popular figures from out past is interesting.

That Jesus--an uneducated, poor, ignorant and presumably illiterate Jew from the backwaters of the Roman empire who was crucified 2,000 years ago is supposedly behind a 2 billion member religion today? That invites examination and study though it doesn't really answer why we will spend so much effort and time discussing the historicity of him. Maybe we just like to debate