Chili

But Jesus was never born, Christ was born and they called him Jesus. The question now becomes: who is this Jesus? He is not the Christ or they would have just called him Christ.

Chili

Exactly. One of them had to go and that was Jesus the Jew so as to set Jesus the son of man (bar-abbas) free and he was the Christ.

Julian

Many early christians believed exactly that.

Julian

Chili

Which Jesus? Jesus the Jew or Jesus the son of Man?

Thomas II

I would agree with that. I would say that, IF we are to take the story as told,
Jesus was anointed as the Christ by John the Baptist.
The "loud voice heard" was John's, in the name of the Father...
Now, what is "to anoint"? To anoint is to consecrate, is to devote, a formal introduction to the purpose...
So what is the purpose? To BECOME the Christ. This is a title which is (in the voice of John Houseman) EARNED...I would say he earned it at the end of the cross process,which is the death of all the ego attachments. And I say "ego attachments" because it is not the death of the ego, because that would mean that one has NO IDENTITY,and that is not what happens...
What happens is that the ego stops being attached to anything material, even to the physical body...The sense of self (ego) has expanded,"ascended",
lost it's material boundaries...
That is why the body of Jesus CHANGES after the "resurrection",but not COMPLETELY...It's a process...When he says "Don't touch me..." to Mary Magdalene, he is still working it out...
What we are talking about here is a major change in consciousness, and then considering the possibility that with that change of consciousness there is an effect on the material fabric of the physical body...
Gee, this sounds religious!
No,it ain't...Consciousness is not a religious object...It's part of our Human Nature! I repeat...IT IS PART OF OUR HUMAN NATURE.
The archetype that we see coming out of this story is that of the man who has transcended the limitations of certain stages of consciousness. I think that it is within our HUMAN NATURE to open up the field of possibilities...
So I don't see anything RELIGIOUS about what Jesus did according to the story...It's about the ascension (growth,development) of his Human Nature, which is exactly the same as OUR human nature...

Julian

Unfortunately, that is a selective interpretation, one that ignores John 1. Again, some early christian agreed with you...

Julian

Thomas II

But Julian, this is why I am an atheist. I allow myself to have my own interpretation. The archetype I mentioned is not Christian...Is part of the human collective unconscious. People all over the world have been doing that path since forever...It's the search for TRUTH.

Chili

. . . but he was not the Christ. The anointing makes reference to the conscious realization that Jesus was the continuity of Christ.

John was the Alpha from the netherworld and Jesus was the Omega from the conscious world to be united in the convergence of the Twain and this, with the descent of the HS upon Jesus, is where this realization came about.

John the baptist was the Christ of old but not the fulness of Christ (John was the favorite apostle later introduced as Mary's son to which Jesus was added or raised). I think not. The identity must die so there will be a Testament that is New (go to Hebrews 9:16 on this).

The title Christ was earned prior to the Annunciation in finding favor with the Lord whereupon God send Gabriel.

The next stage is the conscious realization that the ego must be crucified (but not yet) so there will be no identity for these attachments . . . who, in themselves are good and worthy to be raised into the upper room or subconscious mind.

The evidence that the ego died is given by the darkness that prevailed for Mary Magdalene who's light of common day was generated by the ego that was just crucified.

The riches accumulated by the ego are called shepherds and these were 'on the run' (herding sheep at night) when Christ was born. They are redirected (metanoia) to become helpers (apostolos) to complete the race that Jesus started after this baptism. So the descent of the dove makes reference to a giant awakening.Resurrection is the transition from "son-of-man" to [young] "man" after the Jewish identity has been crucified. The Children of Israel remained children because they failed to crucify their Jewish ego identity =their sin identity. It is when all doubt, and therefore all faith, has been removed that Thomas exclaimed "my Lord and my God that ascension could take place. Ascension is to take up residence in the subconscious mind.

Of course it is a major change of consciousness. John and Jesus were both reborn within the same person. John was the skin and Jesus the wine to make new skin for new wine . . . but the skin was was John's and therefore Jesus had to die and be thrown out like a fore-skin. Commonly known as metamorphosis . . . but is the old 'house' not left behind?

Chili

Truth would have it that if the archetype is prior to nature in us they should all be the same.

Good going Thomas, don't let me upset you.

Thomas II

Why would you upset me?? Not at all.
I do have the sense that you are still not developing your ideas completely and other times you seem to be mistaken. For example,the phrase "John the Baptist was the Christ of old" is an example of a concept not fully developed. you have to open your ideas a little more,explaining what you mean a little more.
Then you continued with "John was the favorite apostle later introduced as Mary's son to which Jesus was added or raised" . Here you seem to be changing John the Apostle with John the Baptist...

I have given this quite a thought sometime before. The IDENTITY,or SENSE OF SELF does not die, otherwise you could not have ANY sense of self! See what I mean? What dies is the adjudicated sense of self, Jesus the man. What becomes is the sense of self of The Christ. This is a process more than an event. This "loneliness" that Jesus feels at times indicates this process.
Little by little parts of this "material" ego are being dismantled...This is an iffy process because one can get really confused and even crazy :Cheeky: if the process is not carefuly guided.


Ok,so as said it is a process...Then I guess that you are referring to the Pentecostal upper room,as "up in the body",subconscious mind...(?)

This I don't quite understand what you mean...Please, develop it a bit more.

:huh:

Resurrection I see as transition from Jesus to Christ. Jesus dies and The Christ is born again...That is my take.


I see your point.

If you want a penis context...one has to be diminished so that the other can be increased Also between Jesus and the HS...

Well,yes...But then as long as the attachments to the house are gone, to actually leave the house or not becomes secondary...
You can go to the desert for 40 days but if you take with you your "attachments", they will haunt you there,which is what happened to Jesus with the "temptations"...But if those attachments are gone you don't really need to go to the desert...