Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 08-09-2006, 06:52 PM

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Ignatia...-Spurious.html

The Ignatian Epistles Entirely Spurious
according to:

W. D. KILLEN, Professor of Ecclesiastical History,
and Principal of the Presbyterian Theological Faculty, Ireland.

"As the account of the martyrdom of Ignatius may be justly
suspected, so, too, the letters which presuppose the correctness
of this suspicious legend do not wear at all a stamp of a distinct
individuality of character, and of a man of these times addressing
his last words to the Churches."
--AUGUSTUS NEANDER.

EDINBURGH
1886.

S.C.Carlson · 08-09-2006, 07:58 PM

Killen wrote:

Quote:

Several circumstances suggest that Callistus--who became Bishop of Rome about A.D. 219--may, before his advancement to the episcopal chair, have had a hand in the preparation of these Ignatian Epistles.

Since Killen's conclusion when they were written must contradict yours (which I take to be about 100 years later), I invite you to refute Killen.

Stephen

mountainman · 08-10-2006, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Since Killen's conclusion when they were written must contradict yours (which I take to be about 100 years later), I invite you to refute Killen.

Thanks Steve.

Everyone involved in BC&H likes to see the integrity problems associated
with one or another aspect of the entire package, for which the backbone
and framework is (essentially) the Eusebian stated chronology, and in this
case Killen examines the integrity of Ignatius, and finds it wanting.

They may then do a similar thing with the TF, and make their stand on
the wholesale interpolation of Josephus. Each of the elemental bits and
pieces are thus found to have serious self-consistency (integrity) issues.

I have no wish to refute Killen, but point out that Killen's criticism was
restricted to Ignatius, rather than the package of christian history as
a whole package, delivered by Eusebius to Constantine, under sponsorship,
immediately prior to Nicaea, the time the imperial mafia thug became
supreme boss of the empire.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

de_doc · 08-11-2006, 01:42 PM

If anyone is interested actually in the dating of Ignatius they may be interested to know that the whole question of the Lightfoot-Zahn consensus on the Eusebian dating of the Ignatians is currently much disputed.

Allen Brent Ignatius of Antioch and the second sophistic (Tuebingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2006)

R. Hubner Thesen zur Echtheit und Datierung der sieben Briefe des Ignatius von Antiochen AZntCh 1 (1997), 42-70

T. Lechner, Ignatius adversus Valentinianos? Chronologische und theologiegeschichtliche Studien zu den briefen des Ignatius von Antiochen (Leiden: Brill, 1999)

Toto · 08-11-2006, 02:58 PM

Ignatius of Antioch and the Second Sophistic: A Study of an Early Christian Transformation of Pagan Culture (the book is generally unavailable in the US)

Quote:

The letters of Ignatius of Antioch, whether considered genuine or pseudonymous, have been generally understood as addressing concerns and issues within the Church. Consequently, his language has been read as an expression of second century Judaeo Christianity or as a reply to Valentinianism, with little direct contact or concern with the surrounding pagan culture. Allen Brent submits Ignatius' language to a comprehensive analysis and seeks to show that both conceptually, and in terms of the form of his arguments, his language game is clearly that of the pagan, Greek city-states of Asia Minor in the Second Sophistic. The author shows from a variety of evidence, both literary, epigraphic and iconographic, that Ignatius' cultural background is in the world of the discourse of Hellenic autonomy against Roman imperial power, in the image-bearing mystery cults of the cities to whom he writes, in their embassies and Homonia treaties, and in their ideal of unity in a common culture expressed by their constitutions and cultural practices. Ignatius emerges as a brilliant missionary strategist, able to reshape ecclesial order in terms of secular social order and its conventions, whose work was scarcely comprehended by his more conservative Christian contemporaries and only later canonized by means of a gross distortion that obscured his original meaning

Second Sophistic

mountainman · 08-12-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Ignatius of Antioch and the Second Sophistic: A Study of an Early Christian Transformation of Pagan Culture (the book is generally unavailable in the US)

Second Sophistic

Thanks for the reference Toto.

I am particularly impressed with the authors observation:

Quote:

Allen Brent submits Ignatius' language to a comprehensive analysis and seeks to show that both conceptually, and in terms of the form of his arguments, his language game is clearly that of the pagan, Greek city-states of Asia Minor in the Second Sophistic.

In one sense it supports the notion that Constantine/Eusebius perverted
the writings of the second sophistic towards their own ends. The very
preservation of the manuscript literature was in their political hands,
and they used it as they pleased, to fabricate a false history for their
new and strange religion.

Pete

08-09-2006, 06:52 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	The Ignatian Epistles Entirely Spurious http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Ignatia...-Spurious.html The Ignatian Epistles Entirely Spurious according to: W. D. KILLEN, Professor of Ecclesiastical History, and Principal of the Presbyterian Theological Faculty, Ireland. "As the account of the martyrdom of Ignatius may be justly suspected, so, too, the letters which presuppose the correctness of this suspicious legend do not wear at all a stamp of a distinct individuality of character, and of a man of these times addressing his last words to the Churches." --AUGUSTUS NEANDER. EDINBURGH 1886.

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08-11-2006, 01:42 PM	#4
de_doc New Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Darkest Dorset, UK Posts: 2	If anyone is interested actually in the dating of Ignatius they may be interested to know that the whole question of the Lightfoot-Zahn consensus on the Eusebian dating of the Ignatians is currently much disputed. Allen Brent Ignatius of Antioch and the second sophistic (Tuebingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2006) R. Hubner Thesen zur Echtheit und Datierung der sieben Briefe des Ignatius von Antiochen AZntCh 1 (1997), 42-70 T. Lechner, Ignatius adversus Valentinianos? Chronologische und theologiegeschichtliche Studien zu den briefen des Ignatius von Antiochen (Leiden: Brill, 1999)

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