Jeffrey Gibson

Obviously Eusebius (or Cyril) got to this text and changed it so that it now denies that, contrary to what Pete has declared, Pachomius' followers were shepherds and priests!

Now about Pete's claim that they were also vegetarians ... Perhaps you -- or more importantly Pete -- can find another "interpolated/forged" text?

Jeffrey

mountainman

Umm, thanks.

420 BCE - Life of Sophocles (496-406 BCE)
The Life tells us that Sophocles served as a priest to Asclepius, god of healing and medicine.

Publius Aelius Aristides (c. 129-189)
A sophist and rhetorician, educated at Pergamum and Athens. Widely traveled in Egypt and Asia Minor, arriving at Rome in 156. Spent most of his time as a patient at the Asclepieum of Pergamum. A friend of Marcus Aurelius, he became a priest of Asclepius (Aesculapius) at Smyrna.

"Asclepius is the one who guides and rules the universe,
the saviour of the whole and the guardian of immortals,
or if you wish to put it in the words of a tragic poet,
"the steerer of government," he who saves that which
always exists and that which is in the state of becoming".
--- Aristides, Oratio 17.4 (Edelstein),
see also Oratio 23.15-18

P.Oxy. 1381:
Dates from later second century CE. Contains extended prologue and first few lines of an aretology of Imouthes - Asclepius. The author of P.Oxy 1381 is gravely ill. Asclepius appears in a dream --- "someone whose height was more than human, clothed in shining raiment and carrying in his left hand a book, who after merely regarding me two or three times from head to foot disappeared." The illness disappeared immediately; but in turn Ascepius demanded,"though the priest who serves him in the ceremonies", the fulfilment of the patient's long-standing undertaking to write a book about Asclepius.

Let's take things one step at a time.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

mountainman

Between Eusebius and Cyril stands Jerome who translated Pachomius (I think) from the Coptic to Latin, and added the fact that he underwent a christian baptism before wandering off into the wilderness for years with the spiritual ascetic master Palamon.

I have commenced a draft article about Pachomius here.

My position is that Pachomius was never a christian in any way, shape or form, and that he foresaw the political necessity of establishing places of refuge in the desert for the ancient lineages of ascetic priests whom had been dispossessed of their heritage by Constantine 324 CE.

It will be argued that later christian ecclesiatical "historians" forged into the record that Pachomius was a christian in the sense that EUsebius of Caesarea was a christian. It will be argued that Jerome, and others, who preserved and translated the literature of Pachomius, fashioned Pachomius as an authodox christian "ascetic hermit".

It will also be argued that Life of Anthony by Anathausius is simply a romantic fiction that has served to establish an historical link and correspondence between the early fourth century desert dwelling ascetic movement (such as Pachomius', and a number of others) and the history of early christianity.

Pachomius is the historical figure, and was a non-christian. Anthony was the subject matter of the biography of a saint, and represents nothing but propaganda. It was an expedient means to "christianise" the great movement of the ascetic monks into their remote monasteries.

Aristocracy, subject to torture and excessive taxation at the hands of the christian emperors of the fourth century, found it a reasonable option to give away their lands and possessions, and flee to the refuge of the desert communities, far from ] the roving spies (Bishops) of the emperor and his state.

Pachomius forsaw this. Perhaps he witnessed Constantine's destruction of the oblelisk of Karnack in 324 CE? Perhaps in the same year Constantine's utter destruction of the ancient major temples of Asclepius, in Aegae and elsewhere, and the public executions of his chief priesthood.

The possibility that Pachomius was this known as "A Prophet" is presented first. It is by no means sure. But the question is at least supported ... When Constantine prohibited temple service c.324 CE, immediately there begins an influx of monks to monasticism. Numbers are in the tens of thousand by the mid century.

Pachomius is also thought to have something to do with the Nag Hammadi Codices. At one stage - in the fourth century - the city of Oxyrhynchus has an utterly monk-filled crowded inner city, and another sprawling outer city surrounding the walls. The authodox reporters are trying to have us believe all these people were authodox christians. Scholars are not so sure. Same with Nag Hammadi.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson

It does? Where? Chapter and verse, please. And when and by whom was the life written?

c. 129-189 CE.

And your source for this claim is what?

There's not a single thing in this quote that shows Aristides was a priest of any sort, let alone of Asclepius. So I ask again: Where can we find texts that use the Greek word for priest in conjunction with, and as a description of, the devotees of Asclepius?


And you are certain that this translation is accurate? What is the Greek text that underlies "though the priest who serves him in the ceremonies"?


Well so far, you haven't even taken the first step. All of the texts you appeal to are late, and it's not clear that any of them do what you say they do.

And BTW, if Sophocles was a priest of anything, it was of the hero cult of Halon.

This is (though expectedly) really sloppy work, Pete.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

In other words, you haven't a scrap of primary (or, for that matter, secondary) evidence that supports your claim that the followers of Pachomius were priests, let alone that they were shepherds and vegetarians.

I thought as much.

Thanks for confirming this.

Jeffrey

PS. I note that you have yet to answer my questions about where we can find in GLuke (and in GMatthew, GMark, and GJohn) the explicit description or report that you have claimed is there ( cf. your Jesus "is presented by the gospel authors") as "gnawing on the bones of sheep"?

Why is that, Pete? Could it be that, as with your claim about Pachomius' followers and Asecpius as explicitly depicted in ancient literature, there isn't any evidence supporting your claim?

Clivedurdle

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-st...ast_supper.htm

This is very interesting discussion and amazingly post modern!

Assuming Jesus was Jewish, one of the main religious rites he would have partaken in was Passover, where lamb was eaten.

http://www.domini.org/tabern/passover.htm

Yes arguably there is no direct evidence Jesus ate lamb, but every other Jew did, so why the exception here?

Oh of course, Jesus is a mythical charater, he couldn't eat roast lamb!

But maybe this is off topic, I wish to explore the role of Apollo further!

Syncreticism?

Jeffrey Gibson

The issue isn't whether Jesus was an exception. The issue is the validity of the Pete's claim that the authors of the canonical Gospels, and especially the author of GJohn, explicity depict Jesus as "gnawing on the bones of sheep" at passover.

Perhaps you can do what Pete has failed to do (and has now apparently run away from doing -- just as he did with his claimes about ancient texts explicitly depicting Asclepius as an acestic) and cite texts from Matthew, Luke, Mark, and especially John, where the evangelists do this.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle

What do these words mean?

But why is Jesus depicted as the good shepherd? And is there proof it is Jesus in the catacombs?

Jeffrey Gibson

You tell us! You are the one who quoted them.

I take it that you have not read the Gospel of John, let alone any commentary on it, yes?

Jeffrey

mountainman

Voluntary Associations in the Graeco-Roman World
By John S. Kloppenborg, Stephen G. Wilson
Aelius Aristides at the Asclepieion of Pergamum

Archaeological data supplement the literary sources
on the Asclepieion of Pergamum, including the most
extensive one, Aelius Aristides' (117-180)' "Sacred Tales".

Therapeutae

Mention of "therapeutae" - "[temple] worshippers or servants"
Aelius Aristides writes:

"We Asclepius therapeutae must agree with the god
that Pergamum is the best of his sanctuaries."
--- Sacred Tales (39.5)


Are you asserting there was no pagan priesthood?


I have always insisted to use the words "collegiate" and cooperative" when using the word "cults" in the period from 000 to 325 CE. The word used by Philo in the Greek, translated as "Therapeutae", is the same word used to describe the attendants of the Asclepia (by Aristides and Galen for example), and yet Philo does not appear to mention Asclepius anywhere I have looked.

Can you make a suggestion as to the relationship between the "therapeutae" described extensively by Philo c.20 CE and the therapeutae described, for example by Galen over 100 years later? I have checked the greek source, and the word "therapeutae" used is the same greek word.

Best wishes,


Pete brown