Helpmabob

Hi Gregor – I’m not sure that this is an example of the Scotsman fallacy. A man will know whether he knows the Holy Spirit in his life or not. It’s either true or false, it is recognisable and unmistakeable. “…And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you.� [John 14:15] You say that you have blasphemed this person, but you do not know it, so how can your blasphemy have any meaning or venom? However, this is purely my suggestion only, and the warning of Jesus not to blaspheme takes precedence.

Clarice O’C – If no God existed, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But I believe in God, and to exclude Him in discussions of Hell would not make sense to me. You only have my word for this, but - He doesn’t spoil my life, he enriches it beyond all measure. Certainly, on the understanding that I can’t possibly do this justice here: The Holy Spirit is divine and eternal. He gives comfort, assurance, guidance, assistance, sustenance, and increases the joy, peace, patience, kindness and gentleness to those that turn to Christ and trust in Him. You’re right - life can be good, although for some it is a struggle. But there is even more besides! 'My purpose is that they may have life, life in all it's fullness.' John 10:10 What couldn’t you do as a christian that really makes you happy?

John123 – I would hesitate to say there is such a thing as a ’know so’ salvation. Many ‘ways’ to God involve following traditions and practices sufficiently well. The other is to have faith in Christ and follow Him. I have chosen the latter, and I am convinced it is right, but it is still a hope of salvation, and a heartfelt assurance.
It is Christ’s sacrifice that is accepted. I have faith in that, and it is through His grace that I am assured in my heart that it is accepted. As you say, faith without deeds is dead, but as I say above, it is not my faith itself which leads me to conclude that “I am not going to Hell�.

Clarice O'C

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I'd like to carry this further as you seem open and nondefensive. Just to say here that the way my life was spoiled when I was a xian was in feeling ashamed of the 'good news,' especially the 'hell' part and I wasn't even a fundie. I knew deep down that I wasn't special from others and I knew that there are/were nonbelievers, Ghandi, children, people of other religions, and so on, fine people who do so much for others, seemingly more than myself sometimes, and I couldn't go along with hell for them. As well, I came to marvel at the silliness of worshipping a male god for myself; I couldn't worship a female, either.

I'll add that non-belief in Jesus doesn't exclude belief in a god although I'm agnostic on that question and prefer it that way now. If there's a god(s), it is a mysterious thing and I don't want to be able to comprehend it 'cause it should be larger than I am.

I have a support system of family, friends, coworkers, acquaintences and even strangers sometimes who provide all of that good stuff for me and I hope I do as well for them in return.

I do feel that my life is full now. When I turned away from xianity I felt an exuberant freedom to embrace everyone and not even need to know what religion or non- they were. I could breathe fresh air for the first time and not feel stiffled. A barrier between me and others melted. Everyone is now equal for me. But I admit that I still feel a little anger that I was duped into religion in the first place, born into it. But then joy that I was strong enough to get out of it. There is nothing that I couldn't do as a xian except be totally free to be whole and one with humanity.

gregor

Helpma

Perhaps this is an alternative explanation for the problem of the curse of the blasphemed holy spirit interpolation. . .

In around 120 CE, before the second war, the Pharisees who would found rabbinic Judaism were holding services in locations alternative to the now-destroyed Temple. They were aware of a splinter group of Jews who were professing a belief in a spirit that would comfort people in these times of woe after the destruction of the Temple. The Pharisees directed that no one could be a Jew and visit the new temple who did not forcefully renounce this belief.

The author of this curse wove the prohibition into the gospel myths directly to counter this requirement.

Your justification - that no one would first be filled with the holy spirit and then blaspheme that spirit - is hard to understand. It would seem to be an excuse to diffuse what was clearly intended to damn members of some competing theology. Feel free to apply Occam's razor to the alternatives.

Atheos

Then perhaps what you're really looking for is The Great Coyote, god of the wilderness and plains. Not only does The Great Coyote offer a heartfelt guarantee of salvation (read his holy words as provided in the link), but he guarantees that he will save you from an eternal punishment 17 times worse than the one described in the christian Bible. What more evidence could there be that this truly is the One True God (tm)?

-Atheos

Astreja

Yes, there is. And it's a person, not a place. My cousin (uncle Loki's daughter) Hel, after whom The Nasty Afterlife Place that Some Christians Use to Scare Non-Believers was named.

She's a bit gloomy sometimes (all the hunky hero-types give her place a miss), but I've never known her to torture anyone. Let alone set them on fire. And certainly not for eternity, either.

Aric2000

What are the 2 things that scare a normal Human Being the most.

1: being burned alive

2: is death

So, what do you have with hell?

Death, and then forever burning alive....

SO, what is the WORST punishment imaginable to the Christian founders who needed converts.

WELL, when you die, #2, then you will Burn forever #1, BUT, if you believe as I do, then you will go to heaven and have everlasting life.

So, there's the choice, either believe, and you will go to heaven and never die, or don't believe, and die and burn forever.

Some choice, huh?

It is nothing but the greatest threat imaginable, so that you will NOT ask questions, but blindly follow wherever the priest or whomever leads you.

John A. Broussard

What's going to happen to the maybe ten or so billion people who in the past (and now) have not accepted Christ's sacrifice?

Just curious.

Helpmabob

Hi Clarice – Thanks for the reply. May I ask your attitude to sin? What it is (if it exists) and if it matters or not? It is also, some would say, highly relevant t the thread topic.

Hi Gregor - And it is hard for me to explain if you do not know the Spirit. Indeed, there would be no need for me to explain if you did. But picture for a moment your least favourite television personality, whom you have never met. You may say all sorts of unpleasant things about him, but through the one-way television medium, this does not affect the personality one jot. Then you meet this person, and find out that in real life they are just like yourself, and you become good friends. You will now be kind to him because you like him. Any nasty things said would now hurt his feelings, as you are his friend.

John A. Broussard – My words above apply to my own situation, which I have considered with extreme care, of that you can be sure. I trust that God will judge justly, but that is little of my business. However, some will be saved by faith. The appearance of Jesus was prophesied – they knew he was coming. Isaiah is full of it.
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations. [Isaiah 42:1]
Read Hebrews 11 if you want more. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. [Hebrews 11:1,2]

Clarice O'C

Sure, it isn't a word I use because it's religious and I never think of using it except when it comes up on these boards. Does it mean 'to do wrong' for you? If so, certainly wrong exists and matters greatly as a cause of suffering in the world.

MsChutzpah

quote mata leo :

"And the very fact that you asked the question indicates that you may have some concerns about it....study this as if your life depends on it son...."


Many times we ask a question , not to get an answer we've heard a thousand times before (most times we know what the answer will be as we've been there as a former christian), but to get the theist to THINK




"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."--Aristotle :wave: