Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jehanne · 12-01-2004, 08:18 AM

I have read where he has been critical of the Jesus Seminar, but what else can you say about him?

the hunt · 12-01-2004, 08:25 AM

Someone that has done a few teaching company lectures:

http://www.teach12.com/store/profess...imothy+Johnson

justsumner · 12-01-2004, 08:34 AM

LTJ was a quest lecturer at my seminary years ago. Very intellegent and articulate Biblical scholar.

andrewcriddle · 12-01-2004, 10:03 AM

LTJ is a Roman Catholic (and ex Benedictine monk).

He is a NT Professor and has written works such as 'The Writings of the New Testament an Interpretation' which is IMO a good NT introduction although some of the judgments are rather conservative eg he regards the pastorals as probably by Paul.

LTJ has also written works such as 'The Creed' which is interesting but more about Christian belief than about the New Testament.

His most well known work is 'The Real Jesus' a critique of Historical Jesus research. One really ought to read it but I'll give a brief selective summary. Apart from the polemic against the Jesus seminar Spong et al he makes the following main claims
a/ there was a real historical Jesus about whom we can securely know a limited amount (Jesus was a Jew who's mission was to his fellow Jews, he was a teacher and probably regarded as a miracle worker. He was tried by Pontius Pilate at the instigation of some of his fellow Jews and killed by crucifixion).
b/ We can know as secure objective history not much more (LTJ criticises Meier's 'A Marginal Jew' for over-optimism about what we can know about the historical Jesus, although he agrees with Meier that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist.)
c/ For Christian religious purposes the major limits on our knowledge of the Historical Jesus are not a problem. LTJ claims that Christians follow the Jesus of the Gospels not the Jesus of neutral historical research.

Andrew Criddle

Vinnie · 12-01-2004, 09:04 PM

Preaches to Choir with dubious uses of history?

Vorkosigan · 12-02-2004, 07:50 AM

Quote:

b/ We can know as secure objective history not much more (LTJ criticises Meier's 'A Marginal Jew' for over-optimism about what we can know about the historical Jesus, although he agrees with Meier that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist.)

Fascinating, as Spock would say. Thanks for the info, Andrew. I'll have to explore his Intro. Possible XMAS gift?

Rick Sumner · 12-02-2004, 08:01 AM

Put most succinctly, Johnson takes the Bultmannian sentiment that the quest for the historical Jesus is historically impossible and theologically illegitimate.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Jehanne · 12-02-2004, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Put most succinctly, Johnson takes the Bultmannian sentiment that the quest for the historical Jesus is historically impossible and theologically illegitimate.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

what's "his problem" with the Jesus Seminar? I find their publications to be insightful.

Toto · 12-02-2004, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

what's "his problem" with the Jesus Seminar? I find their publications to be insightful.

It's part of the culture wars. The JS is "liberal" and LT Johnson is relatively "conservative."

There is a summary of the dispute here.

Quote:

"Jesus is the central symbol for Christianity," Johnson says. "Reshape Jesus and you reshape Christianity. The seminar's agenda is to change Christianity as a cultural phenomenon by coming up with a different version of Jesus. In this age of mass media, if you can market this Jesus sufficiently, it just might work."

. . .

Vernon Robbins, professor of New Testament and Christian Origins in the Department of Religion and a member of the Jesus Seminar from 1985 to 1991, is critical of Johnson's polemical engagement in the public debate as well as his failure to offer a more scholarly assessment of the seminar's work. "The people in the Jesus Seminar have gathered the best research throughout the nineteenth and twentieth centuries to assess the traditions about the life of Jesus, the sayings and the stories," Robbins says. "It's simply not fair to caricature them as doing bad theology, bad history, bad analysis. Luke Johnson's book does not show any special internal knowledge of the debates about the quest for the historical Jesus. Rather, his analysis is of headlines in popular journals and newspapers.

"Although some of Johnson's criticisms in terms of going after a public discussion are accurate and appropriate, unfortunately, in my view, his book simply joins that conversation in the same angry mode. It doesn't seem to me to rise above the negative level of discussion and contribute substantively toward moving it ahead."

LT Johnson's book (reviewed here), is The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels.

Jehanne · 12-02-2004, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It's part of the culture wars. The JS is "liberal" and LT Johnson is relatively "conservative."

There is a summary of the dispute here.

LT Johnson's book (reviewed here), is The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels.

For those board members who may not be aware, here is the Seminar's website:

http://www.jesusseminar.com/index.html

And, my favorite article:

http://www.jesusseminar.com/Periodic...er/easter.html

It seems that LT Johnson wants to "have his cake and eat it, too!"

12-01-2004, 08:18 AM	#1
Jehanne Veteran Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,567	Who is Luke Timothy Johnson? I have read where he has been critical of the Jesus Seminar, but what else can you say about him?

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12-01-2004, 08:25 AM	#2
the hunt Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North America Posts: 160	Someone that has done a few teaching company lectures: http://www.teach12.com/store/profess...imothy+Johnson

12-01-2004, 08:34 AM	#3
justsumner Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44'32N 69' 40W Posts: 374	LTJ was a quest lecturer at my seminary years ago. Very intellegent and articulate Biblical scholar.

12-01-2004, 10:03 AM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	LTJ is a Roman Catholic (and ex Benedictine monk). He is a NT Professor and has written works such as 'The Writings of the New Testament an Interpretation' which is IMO a good NT introduction although some of the judgments are rather conservative eg he regards the pastorals as probably by Paul. LTJ has also written works such as 'The Creed' which is interesting but more about Christian belief than about the New Testament. His most well known work is 'The Real Jesus' a critique of Historical Jesus research. One really ought to read it but I'll give a brief selective summary. Apart from the polemic against the Jesus seminar Spong et al he makes the following main claims a/ there was a real historical Jesus about whom we can securely know a limited amount (Jesus was a Jew who's mission was to his fellow Jews, he was a teacher and probably regarded as a miracle worker. He was tried by Pontius Pilate at the instigation of some of his fellow Jews and killed by crucifixion). b/ We can know as secure objective history not much more (LTJ criticises Meier's 'A Marginal Jew' for over-optimism about what we can know about the historical Jesus, although he agrees with Meier that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist.) c/ For Christian religious purposes the major limits on our knowledge of the Historical Jesus are not a problem. LTJ claims that Christians follow the Jesus of the Gospels not the Jesus of neutral historical research. Andrew Criddle

12-01-2004, 09:04 PM	#5
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Preaches to Choir with dubious uses of history?

12-02-2004, 08:01 AM	#7
Rick Sumner Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Posts: 2,612	Put most succinctly, Johnson takes the Bultmannian sentiment that the quest for the historical Jesus is historically impossible and theologically illegitimate. Regards, Rick Sumner

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